A geometric problem on number of points and lines












4












$begingroup$



There are P points and L lines such that




  • Each line contains 8 points

  • Each point lies on 8 lines

  • Any two distinct lines intersect in a unique point

  • Any two distinct points lie on a unique line.


Lines may be straight or curved. What is $Ptimes L$ ?




My answer, is that, using last two conditions, if $P$ is no of points then L = $binom{P}{2}$. Also if no of lines is $L$ then $P = binom{L}{2}$, from here we need $binom{binom{L}{2}}{2} = L$ which gives 3 as L. This is certainly incorrect.



How to approach this geometric problem?










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$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What happened to the eight points on a line/eight lines through a point when you were counting?
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Bennet
    Mar 10 at 7:35










  • $begingroup$
    @MarkBennet yes that went unused!
    $endgroup$
    – Max Payne
    Mar 10 at 7:45
















4












$begingroup$



There are P points and L lines such that




  • Each line contains 8 points

  • Each point lies on 8 lines

  • Any two distinct lines intersect in a unique point

  • Any two distinct points lie on a unique line.


Lines may be straight or curved. What is $Ptimes L$ ?




My answer, is that, using last two conditions, if $P$ is no of points then L = $binom{P}{2}$. Also if no of lines is $L$ then $P = binom{L}{2}$, from here we need $binom{binom{L}{2}}{2} = L$ which gives 3 as L. This is certainly incorrect.



How to approach this geometric problem?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What happened to the eight points on a line/eight lines through a point when you were counting?
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Bennet
    Mar 10 at 7:35










  • $begingroup$
    @MarkBennet yes that went unused!
    $endgroup$
    – Max Payne
    Mar 10 at 7:45














4












4








4





$begingroup$



There are P points and L lines such that




  • Each line contains 8 points

  • Each point lies on 8 lines

  • Any two distinct lines intersect in a unique point

  • Any two distinct points lie on a unique line.


Lines may be straight or curved. What is $Ptimes L$ ?




My answer, is that, using last two conditions, if $P$ is no of points then L = $binom{P}{2}$. Also if no of lines is $L$ then $P = binom{L}{2}$, from here we need $binom{binom{L}{2}}{2} = L$ which gives 3 as L. This is certainly incorrect.



How to approach this geometric problem?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$





There are P points and L lines such that




  • Each line contains 8 points

  • Each point lies on 8 lines

  • Any two distinct lines intersect in a unique point

  • Any two distinct points lie on a unique line.


Lines may be straight or curved. What is $Ptimes L$ ?




My answer, is that, using last two conditions, if $P$ is no of points then L = $binom{P}{2}$. Also if no of lines is $L$ then $P = binom{L}{2}$, from here we need $binom{binom{L}{2}}{2} = L$ which gives 3 as L. This is certainly incorrect.



How to approach this geometric problem?







combinatorics geometry






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Mar 10 at 8:43









Maria Mazur

49.9k1361125




49.9k1361125










asked Mar 10 at 7:25









Max PayneMax Payne

2,552825




2,552825








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What happened to the eight points on a line/eight lines through a point when you were counting?
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Bennet
    Mar 10 at 7:35










  • $begingroup$
    @MarkBennet yes that went unused!
    $endgroup$
    – Max Payne
    Mar 10 at 7:45














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What happened to the eight points on a line/eight lines through a point when you were counting?
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Bennet
    Mar 10 at 7:35










  • $begingroup$
    @MarkBennet yes that went unused!
    $endgroup$
    – Max Payne
    Mar 10 at 7:45








1




1




$begingroup$
What happened to the eight points on a line/eight lines through a point when you were counting?
$endgroup$
– Mark Bennet
Mar 10 at 7:35




$begingroup$
What happened to the eight points on a line/eight lines through a point when you were counting?
$endgroup$
– Mark Bennet
Mar 10 at 7:35












$begingroup$
@MarkBennet yes that went unused!
$endgroup$
– Max Payne
Mar 10 at 7:45




$begingroup$
@MarkBennet yes that went unused!
$endgroup$
– Max Payne
Mar 10 at 7:45










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

There are $binom P2$ pairs of points, and each pair gives a line. However, each line has $8$ points on it, meaning that the pairs of points are divided into groups of $binom 82=28$, where any pair in a group gives the same line. So the number of distinct lines is $L= frac{binom P2}{28}$.



Similarly, the number of distinct points is $P= frac{binom L2}{28}$.



This gives the following set of equations:
$$
cases{P=frac{L(L-1)}{56}\L=frac{P(P-1)}{56}}
$$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    makes perfect sense, thanks a lot!
    $endgroup$
    – Max Payne
    Mar 10 at 7:46



















4












$begingroup$

Because of first two condititons we have $$Ltimes 8 = Ptimes 8implies L=P$$



Then from the last condition we have $${8choose 2}L = {Pchoose 2}implies P= 57$$



Such a configuration really exists, it is a projective plane of order $7$ it has $7^2+7+1$ points and the same number of lines.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$





















    2












    $begingroup$



    • Any two distinct lines intersect in a unique point

    • Any two distinct points lie on a unique line.




    These two rules are, essentially, the incidence axioms for two-dimensional projective geometry. As such, we have a standard model for the system described here: the projective plane over the field $mathbb{F}_7=mathbb{Z}/7$ with seven elements.



    We can use that model to count the points and lines - or we can just do things directly. Suppose we have a projective plane such that each line has $n+1$ points and each point is on $n+1$ lines.

    Then, consider the system of all $n+1$ lines through a given point $P$. These lines each contain $n$ points other than $P$. Also, each point other than $P$ is on exactly one of these lines. That's $n(n+1)$ points other than $P$; add $P$ back in, and we have a total of exactly $n^2+n+1$ points.

    By symmetry between points and lines, we also have exactly $n^2+n+1$ lines; we could run a similar count using some particular line $ell$, the $n+1$ points on it, and the $n$ other lines through each of those points.



    For our example with $n+1=8$, that's $7^2+7+1=57$ each points and lines, for a product of $3249$.






    share|cite|improve this answer









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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      3












      $begingroup$

      There are $binom P2$ pairs of points, and each pair gives a line. However, each line has $8$ points on it, meaning that the pairs of points are divided into groups of $binom 82=28$, where any pair in a group gives the same line. So the number of distinct lines is $L= frac{binom P2}{28}$.



      Similarly, the number of distinct points is $P= frac{binom L2}{28}$.



      This gives the following set of equations:
      $$
      cases{P=frac{L(L-1)}{56}\L=frac{P(P-1)}{56}}
      $$






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$













      • $begingroup$
        makes perfect sense, thanks a lot!
        $endgroup$
        – Max Payne
        Mar 10 at 7:46
















      3












      $begingroup$

      There are $binom P2$ pairs of points, and each pair gives a line. However, each line has $8$ points on it, meaning that the pairs of points are divided into groups of $binom 82=28$, where any pair in a group gives the same line. So the number of distinct lines is $L= frac{binom P2}{28}$.



      Similarly, the number of distinct points is $P= frac{binom L2}{28}$.



      This gives the following set of equations:
      $$
      cases{P=frac{L(L-1)}{56}\L=frac{P(P-1)}{56}}
      $$






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$













      • $begingroup$
        makes perfect sense, thanks a lot!
        $endgroup$
        – Max Payne
        Mar 10 at 7:46














      3












      3








      3





      $begingroup$

      There are $binom P2$ pairs of points, and each pair gives a line. However, each line has $8$ points on it, meaning that the pairs of points are divided into groups of $binom 82=28$, where any pair in a group gives the same line. So the number of distinct lines is $L= frac{binom P2}{28}$.



      Similarly, the number of distinct points is $P= frac{binom L2}{28}$.



      This gives the following set of equations:
      $$
      cases{P=frac{L(L-1)}{56}\L=frac{P(P-1)}{56}}
      $$






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      There are $binom P2$ pairs of points, and each pair gives a line. However, each line has $8$ points on it, meaning that the pairs of points are divided into groups of $binom 82=28$, where any pair in a group gives the same line. So the number of distinct lines is $L= frac{binom P2}{28}$.



      Similarly, the number of distinct points is $P= frac{binom L2}{28}$.



      This gives the following set of equations:
      $$
      cases{P=frac{L(L-1)}{56}\L=frac{P(P-1)}{56}}
      $$







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered Mar 10 at 7:39









      ArthurArthur

      123k7122211




      123k7122211












      • $begingroup$
        makes perfect sense, thanks a lot!
        $endgroup$
        – Max Payne
        Mar 10 at 7:46


















      • $begingroup$
        makes perfect sense, thanks a lot!
        $endgroup$
        – Max Payne
        Mar 10 at 7:46
















      $begingroup$
      makes perfect sense, thanks a lot!
      $endgroup$
      – Max Payne
      Mar 10 at 7:46




      $begingroup$
      makes perfect sense, thanks a lot!
      $endgroup$
      – Max Payne
      Mar 10 at 7:46











      4












      $begingroup$

      Because of first two condititons we have $$Ltimes 8 = Ptimes 8implies L=P$$



      Then from the last condition we have $${8choose 2}L = {Pchoose 2}implies P= 57$$



      Such a configuration really exists, it is a projective plane of order $7$ it has $7^2+7+1$ points and the same number of lines.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$


















        4












        $begingroup$

        Because of first two condititons we have $$Ltimes 8 = Ptimes 8implies L=P$$



        Then from the last condition we have $${8choose 2}L = {Pchoose 2}implies P= 57$$



        Such a configuration really exists, it is a projective plane of order $7$ it has $7^2+7+1$ points and the same number of lines.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$
















          4












          4








          4





          $begingroup$

          Because of first two condititons we have $$Ltimes 8 = Ptimes 8implies L=P$$



          Then from the last condition we have $${8choose 2}L = {Pchoose 2}implies P= 57$$



          Such a configuration really exists, it is a projective plane of order $7$ it has $7^2+7+1$ points and the same number of lines.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          Because of first two condititons we have $$Ltimes 8 = Ptimes 8implies L=P$$



          Then from the last condition we have $${8choose 2}L = {Pchoose 2}implies P= 57$$



          Such a configuration really exists, it is a projective plane of order $7$ it has $7^2+7+1$ points and the same number of lines.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Mar 10 at 8:39

























          answered Mar 10 at 8:22









          Maria MazurMaria Mazur

          49.9k1361125




          49.9k1361125























              2












              $begingroup$



              • Any two distinct lines intersect in a unique point

              • Any two distinct points lie on a unique line.




              These two rules are, essentially, the incidence axioms for two-dimensional projective geometry. As such, we have a standard model for the system described here: the projective plane over the field $mathbb{F}_7=mathbb{Z}/7$ with seven elements.



              We can use that model to count the points and lines - or we can just do things directly. Suppose we have a projective plane such that each line has $n+1$ points and each point is on $n+1$ lines.

              Then, consider the system of all $n+1$ lines through a given point $P$. These lines each contain $n$ points other than $P$. Also, each point other than $P$ is on exactly one of these lines. That's $n(n+1)$ points other than $P$; add $P$ back in, and we have a total of exactly $n^2+n+1$ points.

              By symmetry between points and lines, we also have exactly $n^2+n+1$ lines; we could run a similar count using some particular line $ell$, the $n+1$ points on it, and the $n$ other lines through each of those points.



              For our example with $n+1=8$, that's $7^2+7+1=57$ each points and lines, for a product of $3249$.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                2












                $begingroup$



                • Any two distinct lines intersect in a unique point

                • Any two distinct points lie on a unique line.




                These two rules are, essentially, the incidence axioms for two-dimensional projective geometry. As such, we have a standard model for the system described here: the projective plane over the field $mathbb{F}_7=mathbb{Z}/7$ with seven elements.



                We can use that model to count the points and lines - or we can just do things directly. Suppose we have a projective plane such that each line has $n+1$ points and each point is on $n+1$ lines.

                Then, consider the system of all $n+1$ lines through a given point $P$. These lines each contain $n$ points other than $P$. Also, each point other than $P$ is on exactly one of these lines. That's $n(n+1)$ points other than $P$; add $P$ back in, and we have a total of exactly $n^2+n+1$ points.

                By symmetry between points and lines, we also have exactly $n^2+n+1$ lines; we could run a similar count using some particular line $ell$, the $n+1$ points on it, and the $n$ other lines through each of those points.



                For our example with $n+1=8$, that's $7^2+7+1=57$ each points and lines, for a product of $3249$.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  2












                  2








                  2





                  $begingroup$



                  • Any two distinct lines intersect in a unique point

                  • Any two distinct points lie on a unique line.




                  These two rules are, essentially, the incidence axioms for two-dimensional projective geometry. As such, we have a standard model for the system described here: the projective plane over the field $mathbb{F}_7=mathbb{Z}/7$ with seven elements.



                  We can use that model to count the points and lines - or we can just do things directly. Suppose we have a projective plane such that each line has $n+1$ points and each point is on $n+1$ lines.

                  Then, consider the system of all $n+1$ lines through a given point $P$. These lines each contain $n$ points other than $P$. Also, each point other than $P$ is on exactly one of these lines. That's $n(n+1)$ points other than $P$; add $P$ back in, and we have a total of exactly $n^2+n+1$ points.

                  By symmetry between points and lines, we also have exactly $n^2+n+1$ lines; we could run a similar count using some particular line $ell$, the $n+1$ points on it, and the $n$ other lines through each of those points.



                  For our example with $n+1=8$, that's $7^2+7+1=57$ each points and lines, for a product of $3249$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$





                  • Any two distinct lines intersect in a unique point

                  • Any two distinct points lie on a unique line.




                  These two rules are, essentially, the incidence axioms for two-dimensional projective geometry. As such, we have a standard model for the system described here: the projective plane over the field $mathbb{F}_7=mathbb{Z}/7$ with seven elements.



                  We can use that model to count the points and lines - or we can just do things directly. Suppose we have a projective plane such that each line has $n+1$ points and each point is on $n+1$ lines.

                  Then, consider the system of all $n+1$ lines through a given point $P$. These lines each contain $n$ points other than $P$. Also, each point other than $P$ is on exactly one of these lines. That's $n(n+1)$ points other than $P$; add $P$ back in, and we have a total of exactly $n^2+n+1$ points.

                  By symmetry between points and lines, we also have exactly $n^2+n+1$ lines; we could run a similar count using some particular line $ell$, the $n+1$ points on it, and the $n$ other lines through each of those points.



                  For our example with $n+1=8$, that's $7^2+7+1=57$ each points and lines, for a product of $3249$.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Mar 10 at 8:57









                  jmerryjmerry

                  17.1k11633




                  17.1k11633






























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