How was the “elliptical dual” used?
In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.
Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").
This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.
greek grammar-identification dual
asked Dec 11 '18 at 22:27
DraconisDraconis
16k22068
add a comment |
In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.
Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").
This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.
greek grammar-identification dual
asked Dec 11 '18 at 22:27
DraconisDraconis
16k22068
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
Dec 12 '18 at 1:25
add a comment |
In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.
Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").
This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.
greek grammar-identification dual
asked Dec 11 '18 at 22:27
DraconisDraconis
16k22068
In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.
Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").
This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.
greek grammar-identification dual
greek grammar-identification dual
asked Dec 11 '18 at 22:27
DraconisDraconis
16k22068
asked Dec 11 '18 at 22:27
DraconisDraconis
16k22068
edited Dec 11 '18 at 22:45
Draconis
asked Dec 11 '18 at 22:27
DraconisDraconis
16k22068
asked Dec 11 '18 at 22:27
DraconisDraconis
16k22068
asked Dec 11 '18 at 22:27
DraconisDraconis
16k22068
16k22068
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
Dec 12 '18 at 1:25
add a comment |
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
Dec 12 '18 at 1:25
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
Dec 12 '18 at 1:25
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
Dec 12 '18 at 1:25
add a comment |
2 Answers
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I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
aulūkhalau "mortar-DUAL" = "mortar and pestle"
There are similar examples in Avestan, and possibly in Lithuanian and Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has examples using plural morphology: Castorēs "Castor and Pollux", Cererēs "Ceres and Persephone".
answered Dec 11 '18 at 22:52
TKRTKR
14k2858
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
Dec 11 '18 at 23:05
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
Dec 11 '18 at 23:10
1
(Called ekaśeṣa (एकशेष) by the Sanskrit grammarians, if anyone wants to read more about the Sanskrit case.)
– ShreevatsaR
Dec 12 '18 at 7:07
add a comment |
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
answered Dec 11 '18 at 23:38
fdbfdb
10.8k11127
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
aulūkhalau "mortar-DUAL" = "mortar and pestle"
There are similar examples in Avestan, and possibly in Lithuanian and Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has examples using plural morphology: Castorēs "Castor and Pollux", Cererēs "Ceres and Persephone".
answered Dec 11 '18 at 22:52
TKRTKR
14k2858
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
Dec 11 '18 at 23:05
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
Dec 11 '18 at 23:10
1
(Called ekaśeṣa (एकशेष) by the Sanskrit grammarians, if anyone wants to read more about the Sanskrit case.)
– ShreevatsaR
Dec 12 '18 at 7:07
add a comment |
I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
aulūkhalau "mortar-DUAL" = "mortar and pestle"
There are similar examples in Avestan, and possibly in Lithuanian and Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has examples using plural morphology: Castorēs "Castor and Pollux", Cererēs "Ceres and Persephone".
answered Dec 11 '18 at 22:52
TKRTKR
14k2858
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
Dec 11 '18 at 23:05
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
Dec 11 '18 at 23:10
1
(Called ekaśeṣa (एकशेष) by the Sanskrit grammarians, if anyone wants to read more about the Sanskrit case.)
– ShreevatsaR
Dec 12 '18 at 7:07
add a comment |
I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
aulūkhalau "mortar-DUAL" = "mortar and pestle"
There are similar examples in Avestan, and possibly in Lithuanian and Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has examples using plural morphology: Castorēs "Castor and Pollux", Cererēs "Ceres and Persephone".
answered Dec 11 '18 at 22:52
TKRTKR
14k2858
I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
aulūkhalau "mortar-DUAL" = "mortar and pestle"
There are similar examples in Avestan, and possibly in Lithuanian and Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has examples using plural morphology: Castorēs "Castor and Pollux", Cererēs "Ceres and Persephone".
answered Dec 11 '18 at 22:52
TKRTKR
14k2858
edited Dec 12 '18 at 4:29
answered Dec 11 '18 at 22:52
TKRTKR
14k2858
answered Dec 11 '18 at 22:52
TKRTKR
14k2858
answered Dec 11 '18 at 22:52
TKRTKR
14k2858
14k2858
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
Dec 11 '18 at 23:05
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
Dec 11 '18 at 23:10
1
(Called ekaśeṣa (एकशेष) by the Sanskrit grammarians, if anyone wants to read more about the Sanskrit case.)
– ShreevatsaR
Dec 12 '18 at 7:07
add a comment |
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
Dec 11 '18 at 23:05
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
Dec 11 '18 at 23:10
1
(Called ekaśeṣa (एकशेष) by the Sanskrit grammarians, if anyone wants to read more about the Sanskrit case.)
– ShreevatsaR
Dec 12 '18 at 7:07
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
Dec 11 '18 at 23:05
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
Dec 11 '18 at 23:05
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
Dec 11 '18 at 23:10
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
Dec 11 '18 at 23:10
1
1
(Called ekaśeṣa (एकशेष) by the Sanskrit grammarians, if anyone wants to read more about the Sanskrit case.)
– ShreevatsaR
Dec 12 '18 at 7:07
(Called ekaśeṣa (एकशेष) by the Sanskrit grammarians, if anyone wants to read more about the Sanskrit case.)
– ShreevatsaR
Dec 12 '18 at 7:07
add a comment |
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
answered Dec 11 '18 at 23:38
fdbfdb
10.8k11127
add a comment |
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
answered Dec 11 '18 at 23:38
fdbfdb
10.8k11127
add a comment |
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
answered Dec 11 '18 at 23:38
fdbfdb
10.8k11127
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
answered Dec 11 '18 at 23:38
fdbfdb
10.8k11127
answered Dec 11 '18 at 23:38
fdbfdb
10.8k11127
answered Dec 11 '18 at 23:38
fdbfdb
10.8k11127
answered Dec 11 '18 at 23:38
fdbfdb
10.8k11127
10.8k11127
add a comment |
add a comment |
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I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
Dec 12 '18 at 1:25