Apparent inconsistency of Lebesgue measure
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Studying the Lebesgue measure on the line I've found the following argument which concludes that $m(mathbb{R}) < +infty$ (where $m$ denotes the Lebesgue measure on $mathbb{R}$). Obviously it must be flawed, but I haven't been able to find the flaw so far.
Recall that for a Lebesgue measurable set $A$ we have by definition that
$$
m(A)=infleft{sum_{n=1}^infty(b_n-a_n):cup_{n=1}^infty(a_n,b_n]supset Aright}.
$$
Pick your favorite summable sequence of positive terms, ${a_n=1/n^2}_{n=1}^infty$ for instance. We know the rational numbers are countable, so we can index them in a sequence ${q_n}_{n=1}^infty$. Now consider the intervals
$$
I_n=left(q_n-frac{a_n}{2},q_n+frac{a_n}{2}right].
$$
As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subsetcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$ but then, having into account the definition of Lebesgue measure we have
$$
m(mathbb{R})leqsum_{n=1}^inftyleft(big(q_n+frac{a_n}{2}big)-big(q_n-frac{a_n}{2}big)right)=sum_{n=1}^infty a_n<+infty.
$$
For instance with $a_n=1/n^2$ we get $m(mathbb{R})leqpi^2/6$.
As I said, I know this is flawed but I've spent almost two hours trying to find the flaw so any help would be appreciated!
measure-theory lebesgue-measure fake-proofs
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Studying the Lebesgue measure on the line I've found the following argument which concludes that $m(mathbb{R}) < +infty$ (where $m$ denotes the Lebesgue measure on $mathbb{R}$). Obviously it must be flawed, but I haven't been able to find the flaw so far.
Recall that for a Lebesgue measurable set $A$ we have by definition that
$$
m(A)=infleft{sum_{n=1}^infty(b_n-a_n):cup_{n=1}^infty(a_n,b_n]supset Aright}.
$$
Pick your favorite summable sequence of positive terms, ${a_n=1/n^2}_{n=1}^infty$ for instance. We know the rational numbers are countable, so we can index them in a sequence ${q_n}_{n=1}^infty$. Now consider the intervals
$$
I_n=left(q_n-frac{a_n}{2},q_n+frac{a_n}{2}right].
$$
As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subsetcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$ but then, having into account the definition of Lebesgue measure we have
$$
m(mathbb{R})leqsum_{n=1}^inftyleft(big(q_n+frac{a_n}{2}big)-big(q_n-frac{a_n}{2}big)right)=sum_{n=1}^infty a_n<+infty.
$$
For instance with $a_n=1/n^2$ we get $m(mathbb{R})leqpi^2/6$.
As I said, I know this is flawed but I've spent almost two hours trying to find the flaw so any help would be appreciated!
measure-theory lebesgue-measure fake-proofs
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7
$begingroup$
This strange set you constructed is discussed in this video. It is known for its paradoxical property of being of finite measure, but having all rationals as inner points. Still, it is not all of $Bbb R$.
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Sep 11 '17 at 17:14
8
$begingroup$
A closed subset of $mathbb{R}$ containing all rational numbers must equal $mathbb{R}$ itself. Without closedness, however, nothing can be said. You have just constructed one such non-trivial example.
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– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 17:22
1
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@SangchulLee This should be the answer.
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– Zach Boyd
Sep 11 '17 at 17:30
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@ZachBoyd, I tried to improve it to an answer :)
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 18:20
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@M.Winter Thank you your comment/answer and thank you for the video too, I've found it really instructive and interesting!! :)
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:43
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Studying the Lebesgue measure on the line I've found the following argument which concludes that $m(mathbb{R}) < +infty$ (where $m$ denotes the Lebesgue measure on $mathbb{R}$). Obviously it must be flawed, but I haven't been able to find the flaw so far.
Recall that for a Lebesgue measurable set $A$ we have by definition that
$$
m(A)=infleft{sum_{n=1}^infty(b_n-a_n):cup_{n=1}^infty(a_n,b_n]supset Aright}.
$$
Pick your favorite summable sequence of positive terms, ${a_n=1/n^2}_{n=1}^infty$ for instance. We know the rational numbers are countable, so we can index them in a sequence ${q_n}_{n=1}^infty$. Now consider the intervals
$$
I_n=left(q_n-frac{a_n}{2},q_n+frac{a_n}{2}right].
$$
As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subsetcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$ but then, having into account the definition of Lebesgue measure we have
$$
m(mathbb{R})leqsum_{n=1}^inftyleft(big(q_n+frac{a_n}{2}big)-big(q_n-frac{a_n}{2}big)right)=sum_{n=1}^infty a_n<+infty.
$$
For instance with $a_n=1/n^2$ we get $m(mathbb{R})leqpi^2/6$.
As I said, I know this is flawed but I've spent almost two hours trying to find the flaw so any help would be appreciated!
measure-theory lebesgue-measure fake-proofs
$endgroup$
Studying the Lebesgue measure on the line I've found the following argument which concludes that $m(mathbb{R}) < +infty$ (where $m$ denotes the Lebesgue measure on $mathbb{R}$). Obviously it must be flawed, but I haven't been able to find the flaw so far.
Recall that for a Lebesgue measurable set $A$ we have by definition that
$$
m(A)=infleft{sum_{n=1}^infty(b_n-a_n):cup_{n=1}^infty(a_n,b_n]supset Aright}.
$$
Pick your favorite summable sequence of positive terms, ${a_n=1/n^2}_{n=1}^infty$ for instance. We know the rational numbers are countable, so we can index them in a sequence ${q_n}_{n=1}^infty$. Now consider the intervals
$$
I_n=left(q_n-frac{a_n}{2},q_n+frac{a_n}{2}right].
$$
As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subsetcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$ but then, having into account the definition of Lebesgue measure we have
$$
m(mathbb{R})leqsum_{n=1}^inftyleft(big(q_n+frac{a_n}{2}big)-big(q_n-frac{a_n}{2}big)right)=sum_{n=1}^infty a_n<+infty.
$$
For instance with $a_n=1/n^2$ we get $m(mathbb{R})leqpi^2/6$.
As I said, I know this is flawed but I've spent almost two hours trying to find the flaw so any help would be appreciated!
measure-theory lebesgue-measure fake-proofs
measure-theory lebesgue-measure fake-proofs
edited Dec 25 '18 at 13:31
Namaste
1
1
asked Sep 11 '17 at 17:08
Jonatan B. BastosJonatan B. Bastos
1,001615
1,001615
7
$begingroup$
This strange set you constructed is discussed in this video. It is known for its paradoxical property of being of finite measure, but having all rationals as inner points. Still, it is not all of $Bbb R$.
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Sep 11 '17 at 17:14
8
$begingroup$
A closed subset of $mathbb{R}$ containing all rational numbers must equal $mathbb{R}$ itself. Without closedness, however, nothing can be said. You have just constructed one such non-trivial example.
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 17:22
1
$begingroup$
@SangchulLee This should be the answer.
$endgroup$
– Zach Boyd
Sep 11 '17 at 17:30
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@ZachBoyd, I tried to improve it to an answer :)
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 18:20
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@M.Winter Thank you your comment/answer and thank you for the video too, I've found it really instructive and interesting!! :)
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:43
add a comment |
7
$begingroup$
This strange set you constructed is discussed in this video. It is known for its paradoxical property of being of finite measure, but having all rationals as inner points. Still, it is not all of $Bbb R$.
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Sep 11 '17 at 17:14
8
$begingroup$
A closed subset of $mathbb{R}$ containing all rational numbers must equal $mathbb{R}$ itself. Without closedness, however, nothing can be said. You have just constructed one such non-trivial example.
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 17:22
1
$begingroup$
@SangchulLee This should be the answer.
$endgroup$
– Zach Boyd
Sep 11 '17 at 17:30
$begingroup$
@ZachBoyd, I tried to improve it to an answer :)
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 18:20
$begingroup$
@M.Winter Thank you your comment/answer and thank you for the video too, I've found it really instructive and interesting!! :)
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:43
7
7
$begingroup$
This strange set you constructed is discussed in this video. It is known for its paradoxical property of being of finite measure, but having all rationals as inner points. Still, it is not all of $Bbb R$.
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Sep 11 '17 at 17:14
$begingroup$
This strange set you constructed is discussed in this video. It is known for its paradoxical property of being of finite measure, but having all rationals as inner points. Still, it is not all of $Bbb R$.
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Sep 11 '17 at 17:14
8
8
$begingroup$
A closed subset of $mathbb{R}$ containing all rational numbers must equal $mathbb{R}$ itself. Without closedness, however, nothing can be said. You have just constructed one such non-trivial example.
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 17:22
$begingroup$
A closed subset of $mathbb{R}$ containing all rational numbers must equal $mathbb{R}$ itself. Without closedness, however, nothing can be said. You have just constructed one such non-trivial example.
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 17:22
1
1
$begingroup$
@SangchulLee This should be the answer.
$endgroup$
– Zach Boyd
Sep 11 '17 at 17:30
$begingroup$
@SangchulLee This should be the answer.
$endgroup$
– Zach Boyd
Sep 11 '17 at 17:30
$begingroup$
@ZachBoyd, I tried to improve it to an answer :)
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 18:20
$begingroup$
@ZachBoyd, I tried to improve it to an answer :)
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 18:20
$begingroup$
@M.Winter Thank you your comment/answer and thank you for the video too, I've found it really instructive and interesting!! :)
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:43
$begingroup$
@M.Winter Thank you your comment/answer and thank you for the video too, I've found it really instructive and interesting!! :)
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:43
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
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"As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subset bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$."
This is false. Pick your favorite irrational number $x$. For every $n$, there exist infinitely many rationals $q_m$ such that $q_m$ is within $a_n/2$ of $x$. But the least such $m$ may be much larger than $n$. In particular, it does not follow that there exists some $n$ such that $x$ is within $a_n/2$ of $q_n$, which is what is necessary to have $xin bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
One can explicitly demonstrate the failure of the argument for $mathbb R_+$. Generalize to $mathbb R$ as needed.
Consider the following maps $f:mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb N_+$ and $g: mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb Q_+$
begin{eqnarray}
f({k,m}) &=& (k + m - 2 )(k + m - 1) + m \
g({k,m}) &=& k/m.
end{eqnarray}
You can verify that $f$ is a bijection and $g$ is onto, and thus $h(n) = g(f^{-1}(n))$ maps from $mathbb N_+$ onto a dense subset of $mathbb R_+$. Now consider the set
$$
U = bigcup_{n=1}^infty left(h(n) - frac{a_n}{2},h(n) + frac{a_n}{2}right).
$$
Using the sequence ${a_n = n^{-2}}_{n=1}^infty$, I can prove $phi = (1+sqrt{5})/2notin U$.
First, note that $h$ orders the ratios $k/m$ first by increasing $k+m$, then by increasing $m$. Because of this, if $h(n)$ is a continued fraction convergent of $phi$, then $|h(n') - phi| > |h(n) - phi|$ for all $n' < n$. The continued fraction convergents of $phi$ are of the form $F_{i+1}/F_i$, where $F_i$ are Fibonnaci numbers, and occur when $n_i = (F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 2)(F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 1)/2 + F_{i}ge F_{i}F_{i+1}$. One can prove from the Fibonacci formula that the error on these convergents is always larger than $0.4F_{i}^2$.
Now consider $n_i le n < n_{i+1}$. Then we have $a_n = n^{-2} le n_i^{-2}le F_{i}^{-2}F_{i+1}^{-2}$ and $|h(n) - phi| > |h(n_{i+1})-phi| > 0.4 F_{i+1}^{-2}$. If $phiin U$, there must be an $n$ with $|h(n) - phi| < a_n/2$ for some $n$. This would then imply $0.4 < F_{i}^{-2}/2$, which can only be satisfied for $F_i = 1$. Thus such an $n$ would have to satisfy $n < n_3 = 8$. Since it can be checked that none of these works, $phi notin U$.
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1
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Wow! I really appreciate the effort in writing this concrete example, and that's why I am upvoting this, but you didn't need to post another answer since the existing ones already addressed my question completely. In particular my fake proof above shows that $cup_nI_n$ doesn't contain the real line by contradiction. I hope this answer helps future readers who want specific examples though.
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 12 '17 at 2:48
5
$begingroup$
I have a fondness for disproof by constructing counterexamples. It feels more concrete than a proof by contradiction. Also, upon further reflection, I have a suspicion that when using $h$ to index the rationals and assuming $a_n$ is monotone, $phi in U$ implies $sum_{n=1}^infty a_n = infty$. That sounds hard to prove, though.
$endgroup$
– eyeballfrog
Sep 12 '17 at 6:04
add a comment |
$begingroup$
(Extended from a comment) Recall that a subset $mathcal{D}$ of $mathbb{R}$ is called dense if its closure $bar{mathcal{D}}$ is all of $mathbb{R}$. From this definition, you can readily check that the followings are equivalent for dense subsets $mathcal{D} subset mathbb{R}$:
$$ text{$mathcal{D}$ is closed in $mathbb{R}$} qquad Leftrightarrow qquad text{$mathcal{D} = mathbb{R}$}. $$
In particular, you can't tell much how porous your set $mathcal{D}$ will be only by knowing the density of $mathcal{D}$. There are lots of dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ which is not closed (and hence not all of $mathbb{R})$.
Example. If we pick a sequence $(r_n)_{n=1}^{infty}$ of positive numbers satisfying $sum_{n=1}^{infty} r_n < infty$, then
$$ U = bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} (q_n - r_n, q_n + r_n)$$
is an open set such that $mathbb{Q} subset U$ but $operatorname{Leb}(U) leq sum_{n=1}^{infty} 2r_n < infty$. So there are open dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ with finite length. Notice also that $operatorname{Leb}(U)$ can be made arbitrarily small by choosing suitable $(r_n)$. Another interesting feature of this example is that the boundary $partial U$ has infinite length! In this way, you may think of $U$ as tiny pores of a highly porous material, such as a sponge.
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1
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(+1) Thank you for your comment and answer, I've found them really helpful! I accepted Alex Kruckman's answer though because he gets exactly to the point I was missing, and because we're only allowed to accept one answer. :(
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:29
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The rationals are all contained in $bigcup I_n$ but not all irrationals
are.
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add a comment |
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4 Answers
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4 Answers
4
active
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$begingroup$
"As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subset bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$."
This is false. Pick your favorite irrational number $x$. For every $n$, there exist infinitely many rationals $q_m$ such that $q_m$ is within $a_n/2$ of $x$. But the least such $m$ may be much larger than $n$. In particular, it does not follow that there exists some $n$ such that $x$ is within $a_n/2$ of $q_n$, which is what is necessary to have $xin bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
"As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subset bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$."
This is false. Pick your favorite irrational number $x$. For every $n$, there exist infinitely many rationals $q_m$ such that $q_m$ is within $a_n/2$ of $x$. But the least such $m$ may be much larger than $n$. In particular, it does not follow that there exists some $n$ such that $x$ is within $a_n/2$ of $q_n$, which is what is necessary to have $xin bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
"As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subset bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$."
This is false. Pick your favorite irrational number $x$. For every $n$, there exist infinitely many rationals $q_m$ such that $q_m$ is within $a_n/2$ of $x$. But the least such $m$ may be much larger than $n$. In particular, it does not follow that there exists some $n$ such that $x$ is within $a_n/2$ of $q_n$, which is what is necessary to have $xin bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$.
$endgroup$
"As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subset bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$."
This is false. Pick your favorite irrational number $x$. For every $n$, there exist infinitely many rationals $q_m$ such that $q_m$ is within $a_n/2$ of $x$. But the least such $m$ may be much larger than $n$. In particular, it does not follow that there exists some $n$ such that $x$ is within $a_n/2$ of $q_n$, which is what is necessary to have $xin bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$.
edited Dec 25 '18 at 13:33
Namaste
1
1
answered Sep 11 '17 at 17:10
Alex KruckmanAlex Kruckman
28k32658
28k32658
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
One can explicitly demonstrate the failure of the argument for $mathbb R_+$. Generalize to $mathbb R$ as needed.
Consider the following maps $f:mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb N_+$ and $g: mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb Q_+$
begin{eqnarray}
f({k,m}) &=& (k + m - 2 )(k + m - 1) + m \
g({k,m}) &=& k/m.
end{eqnarray}
You can verify that $f$ is a bijection and $g$ is onto, and thus $h(n) = g(f^{-1}(n))$ maps from $mathbb N_+$ onto a dense subset of $mathbb R_+$. Now consider the set
$$
U = bigcup_{n=1}^infty left(h(n) - frac{a_n}{2},h(n) + frac{a_n}{2}right).
$$
Using the sequence ${a_n = n^{-2}}_{n=1}^infty$, I can prove $phi = (1+sqrt{5})/2notin U$.
First, note that $h$ orders the ratios $k/m$ first by increasing $k+m$, then by increasing $m$. Because of this, if $h(n)$ is a continued fraction convergent of $phi$, then $|h(n') - phi| > |h(n) - phi|$ for all $n' < n$. The continued fraction convergents of $phi$ are of the form $F_{i+1}/F_i$, where $F_i$ are Fibonnaci numbers, and occur when $n_i = (F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 2)(F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 1)/2 + F_{i}ge F_{i}F_{i+1}$. One can prove from the Fibonacci formula that the error on these convergents is always larger than $0.4F_{i}^2$.
Now consider $n_i le n < n_{i+1}$. Then we have $a_n = n^{-2} le n_i^{-2}le F_{i}^{-2}F_{i+1}^{-2}$ and $|h(n) - phi| > |h(n_{i+1})-phi| > 0.4 F_{i+1}^{-2}$. If $phiin U$, there must be an $n$ with $|h(n) - phi| < a_n/2$ for some $n$. This would then imply $0.4 < F_{i}^{-2}/2$, which can only be satisfied for $F_i = 1$. Thus such an $n$ would have to satisfy $n < n_3 = 8$. Since it can be checked that none of these works, $phi notin U$.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Wow! I really appreciate the effort in writing this concrete example, and that's why I am upvoting this, but you didn't need to post another answer since the existing ones already addressed my question completely. In particular my fake proof above shows that $cup_nI_n$ doesn't contain the real line by contradiction. I hope this answer helps future readers who want specific examples though.
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 12 '17 at 2:48
5
$begingroup$
I have a fondness for disproof by constructing counterexamples. It feels more concrete than a proof by contradiction. Also, upon further reflection, I have a suspicion that when using $h$ to index the rationals and assuming $a_n$ is monotone, $phi in U$ implies $sum_{n=1}^infty a_n = infty$. That sounds hard to prove, though.
$endgroup$
– eyeballfrog
Sep 12 '17 at 6:04
add a comment |
$begingroup$
One can explicitly demonstrate the failure of the argument for $mathbb R_+$. Generalize to $mathbb R$ as needed.
Consider the following maps $f:mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb N_+$ and $g: mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb Q_+$
begin{eqnarray}
f({k,m}) &=& (k + m - 2 )(k + m - 1) + m \
g({k,m}) &=& k/m.
end{eqnarray}
You can verify that $f$ is a bijection and $g$ is onto, and thus $h(n) = g(f^{-1}(n))$ maps from $mathbb N_+$ onto a dense subset of $mathbb R_+$. Now consider the set
$$
U = bigcup_{n=1}^infty left(h(n) - frac{a_n}{2},h(n) + frac{a_n}{2}right).
$$
Using the sequence ${a_n = n^{-2}}_{n=1}^infty$, I can prove $phi = (1+sqrt{5})/2notin U$.
First, note that $h$ orders the ratios $k/m$ first by increasing $k+m$, then by increasing $m$. Because of this, if $h(n)$ is a continued fraction convergent of $phi$, then $|h(n') - phi| > |h(n) - phi|$ for all $n' < n$. The continued fraction convergents of $phi$ are of the form $F_{i+1}/F_i$, where $F_i$ are Fibonnaci numbers, and occur when $n_i = (F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 2)(F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 1)/2 + F_{i}ge F_{i}F_{i+1}$. One can prove from the Fibonacci formula that the error on these convergents is always larger than $0.4F_{i}^2$.
Now consider $n_i le n < n_{i+1}$. Then we have $a_n = n^{-2} le n_i^{-2}le F_{i}^{-2}F_{i+1}^{-2}$ and $|h(n) - phi| > |h(n_{i+1})-phi| > 0.4 F_{i+1}^{-2}$. If $phiin U$, there must be an $n$ with $|h(n) - phi| < a_n/2$ for some $n$. This would then imply $0.4 < F_{i}^{-2}/2$, which can only be satisfied for $F_i = 1$. Thus such an $n$ would have to satisfy $n < n_3 = 8$. Since it can be checked that none of these works, $phi notin U$.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Wow! I really appreciate the effort in writing this concrete example, and that's why I am upvoting this, but you didn't need to post another answer since the existing ones already addressed my question completely. In particular my fake proof above shows that $cup_nI_n$ doesn't contain the real line by contradiction. I hope this answer helps future readers who want specific examples though.
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 12 '17 at 2:48
5
$begingroup$
I have a fondness for disproof by constructing counterexamples. It feels more concrete than a proof by contradiction. Also, upon further reflection, I have a suspicion that when using $h$ to index the rationals and assuming $a_n$ is monotone, $phi in U$ implies $sum_{n=1}^infty a_n = infty$. That sounds hard to prove, though.
$endgroup$
– eyeballfrog
Sep 12 '17 at 6:04
add a comment |
$begingroup$
One can explicitly demonstrate the failure of the argument for $mathbb R_+$. Generalize to $mathbb R$ as needed.
Consider the following maps $f:mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb N_+$ and $g: mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb Q_+$
begin{eqnarray}
f({k,m}) &=& (k + m - 2 )(k + m - 1) + m \
g({k,m}) &=& k/m.
end{eqnarray}
You can verify that $f$ is a bijection and $g$ is onto, and thus $h(n) = g(f^{-1}(n))$ maps from $mathbb N_+$ onto a dense subset of $mathbb R_+$. Now consider the set
$$
U = bigcup_{n=1}^infty left(h(n) - frac{a_n}{2},h(n) + frac{a_n}{2}right).
$$
Using the sequence ${a_n = n^{-2}}_{n=1}^infty$, I can prove $phi = (1+sqrt{5})/2notin U$.
First, note that $h$ orders the ratios $k/m$ first by increasing $k+m$, then by increasing $m$. Because of this, if $h(n)$ is a continued fraction convergent of $phi$, then $|h(n') - phi| > |h(n) - phi|$ for all $n' < n$. The continued fraction convergents of $phi$ are of the form $F_{i+1}/F_i$, where $F_i$ are Fibonnaci numbers, and occur when $n_i = (F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 2)(F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 1)/2 + F_{i}ge F_{i}F_{i+1}$. One can prove from the Fibonacci formula that the error on these convergents is always larger than $0.4F_{i}^2$.
Now consider $n_i le n < n_{i+1}$. Then we have $a_n = n^{-2} le n_i^{-2}le F_{i}^{-2}F_{i+1}^{-2}$ and $|h(n) - phi| > |h(n_{i+1})-phi| > 0.4 F_{i+1}^{-2}$. If $phiin U$, there must be an $n$ with $|h(n) - phi| < a_n/2$ for some $n$. This would then imply $0.4 < F_{i}^{-2}/2$, which can only be satisfied for $F_i = 1$. Thus such an $n$ would have to satisfy $n < n_3 = 8$. Since it can be checked that none of these works, $phi notin U$.
$endgroup$
One can explicitly demonstrate the failure of the argument for $mathbb R_+$. Generalize to $mathbb R$ as needed.
Consider the following maps $f:mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb N_+$ and $g: mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb Q_+$
begin{eqnarray}
f({k,m}) &=& (k + m - 2 )(k + m - 1) + m \
g({k,m}) &=& k/m.
end{eqnarray}
You can verify that $f$ is a bijection and $g$ is onto, and thus $h(n) = g(f^{-1}(n))$ maps from $mathbb N_+$ onto a dense subset of $mathbb R_+$. Now consider the set
$$
U = bigcup_{n=1}^infty left(h(n) - frac{a_n}{2},h(n) + frac{a_n}{2}right).
$$
Using the sequence ${a_n = n^{-2}}_{n=1}^infty$, I can prove $phi = (1+sqrt{5})/2notin U$.
First, note that $h$ orders the ratios $k/m$ first by increasing $k+m$, then by increasing $m$. Because of this, if $h(n)$ is a continued fraction convergent of $phi$, then $|h(n') - phi| > |h(n) - phi|$ for all $n' < n$. The continued fraction convergents of $phi$ are of the form $F_{i+1}/F_i$, where $F_i$ are Fibonnaci numbers, and occur when $n_i = (F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 2)(F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 1)/2 + F_{i}ge F_{i}F_{i+1}$. One can prove from the Fibonacci formula that the error on these convergents is always larger than $0.4F_{i}^2$.
Now consider $n_i le n < n_{i+1}$. Then we have $a_n = n^{-2} le n_i^{-2}le F_{i}^{-2}F_{i+1}^{-2}$ and $|h(n) - phi| > |h(n_{i+1})-phi| > 0.4 F_{i+1}^{-2}$. If $phiin U$, there must be an $n$ with $|h(n) - phi| < a_n/2$ for some $n$. This would then imply $0.4 < F_{i}^{-2}/2$, which can only be satisfied for $F_i = 1$. Thus such an $n$ would have to satisfy $n < n_3 = 8$. Since it can be checked that none of these works, $phi notin U$.
answered Sep 12 '17 at 1:05
eyeballfrogeyeballfrog
6,456629
6,456629
1
$begingroup$
Wow! I really appreciate the effort in writing this concrete example, and that's why I am upvoting this, but you didn't need to post another answer since the existing ones already addressed my question completely. In particular my fake proof above shows that $cup_nI_n$ doesn't contain the real line by contradiction. I hope this answer helps future readers who want specific examples though.
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 12 '17 at 2:48
5
$begingroup$
I have a fondness for disproof by constructing counterexamples. It feels more concrete than a proof by contradiction. Also, upon further reflection, I have a suspicion that when using $h$ to index the rationals and assuming $a_n$ is monotone, $phi in U$ implies $sum_{n=1}^infty a_n = infty$. That sounds hard to prove, though.
$endgroup$
– eyeballfrog
Sep 12 '17 at 6:04
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Wow! I really appreciate the effort in writing this concrete example, and that's why I am upvoting this, but you didn't need to post another answer since the existing ones already addressed my question completely. In particular my fake proof above shows that $cup_nI_n$ doesn't contain the real line by contradiction. I hope this answer helps future readers who want specific examples though.
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 12 '17 at 2:48
5
$begingroup$
I have a fondness for disproof by constructing counterexamples. It feels more concrete than a proof by contradiction. Also, upon further reflection, I have a suspicion that when using $h$ to index the rationals and assuming $a_n$ is monotone, $phi in U$ implies $sum_{n=1}^infty a_n = infty$. That sounds hard to prove, though.
$endgroup$
– eyeballfrog
Sep 12 '17 at 6:04
1
1
$begingroup$
Wow! I really appreciate the effort in writing this concrete example, and that's why I am upvoting this, but you didn't need to post another answer since the existing ones already addressed my question completely. In particular my fake proof above shows that $cup_nI_n$ doesn't contain the real line by contradiction. I hope this answer helps future readers who want specific examples though.
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 12 '17 at 2:48
$begingroup$
Wow! I really appreciate the effort in writing this concrete example, and that's why I am upvoting this, but you didn't need to post another answer since the existing ones already addressed my question completely. In particular my fake proof above shows that $cup_nI_n$ doesn't contain the real line by contradiction. I hope this answer helps future readers who want specific examples though.
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 12 '17 at 2:48
5
5
$begingroup$
I have a fondness for disproof by constructing counterexamples. It feels more concrete than a proof by contradiction. Also, upon further reflection, I have a suspicion that when using $h$ to index the rationals and assuming $a_n$ is monotone, $phi in U$ implies $sum_{n=1}^infty a_n = infty$. That sounds hard to prove, though.
$endgroup$
– eyeballfrog
Sep 12 '17 at 6:04
$begingroup$
I have a fondness for disproof by constructing counterexamples. It feels more concrete than a proof by contradiction. Also, upon further reflection, I have a suspicion that when using $h$ to index the rationals and assuming $a_n$ is monotone, $phi in U$ implies $sum_{n=1}^infty a_n = infty$. That sounds hard to prove, though.
$endgroup$
– eyeballfrog
Sep 12 '17 at 6:04
add a comment |
$begingroup$
(Extended from a comment) Recall that a subset $mathcal{D}$ of $mathbb{R}$ is called dense if its closure $bar{mathcal{D}}$ is all of $mathbb{R}$. From this definition, you can readily check that the followings are equivalent for dense subsets $mathcal{D} subset mathbb{R}$:
$$ text{$mathcal{D}$ is closed in $mathbb{R}$} qquad Leftrightarrow qquad text{$mathcal{D} = mathbb{R}$}. $$
In particular, you can't tell much how porous your set $mathcal{D}$ will be only by knowing the density of $mathcal{D}$. There are lots of dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ which is not closed (and hence not all of $mathbb{R})$.
Example. If we pick a sequence $(r_n)_{n=1}^{infty}$ of positive numbers satisfying $sum_{n=1}^{infty} r_n < infty$, then
$$ U = bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} (q_n - r_n, q_n + r_n)$$
is an open set such that $mathbb{Q} subset U$ but $operatorname{Leb}(U) leq sum_{n=1}^{infty} 2r_n < infty$. So there are open dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ with finite length. Notice also that $operatorname{Leb}(U)$ can be made arbitrarily small by choosing suitable $(r_n)$. Another interesting feature of this example is that the boundary $partial U$ has infinite length! In this way, you may think of $U$ as tiny pores of a highly porous material, such as a sponge.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
(+1) Thank you for your comment and answer, I've found them really helpful! I accepted Alex Kruckman's answer though because he gets exactly to the point I was missing, and because we're only allowed to accept one answer. :(
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:29
add a comment |
$begingroup$
(Extended from a comment) Recall that a subset $mathcal{D}$ of $mathbb{R}$ is called dense if its closure $bar{mathcal{D}}$ is all of $mathbb{R}$. From this definition, you can readily check that the followings are equivalent for dense subsets $mathcal{D} subset mathbb{R}$:
$$ text{$mathcal{D}$ is closed in $mathbb{R}$} qquad Leftrightarrow qquad text{$mathcal{D} = mathbb{R}$}. $$
In particular, you can't tell much how porous your set $mathcal{D}$ will be only by knowing the density of $mathcal{D}$. There are lots of dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ which is not closed (and hence not all of $mathbb{R})$.
Example. If we pick a sequence $(r_n)_{n=1}^{infty}$ of positive numbers satisfying $sum_{n=1}^{infty} r_n < infty$, then
$$ U = bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} (q_n - r_n, q_n + r_n)$$
is an open set such that $mathbb{Q} subset U$ but $operatorname{Leb}(U) leq sum_{n=1}^{infty} 2r_n < infty$. So there are open dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ with finite length. Notice also that $operatorname{Leb}(U)$ can be made arbitrarily small by choosing suitable $(r_n)$. Another interesting feature of this example is that the boundary $partial U$ has infinite length! In this way, you may think of $U$ as tiny pores of a highly porous material, such as a sponge.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
(+1) Thank you for your comment and answer, I've found them really helpful! I accepted Alex Kruckman's answer though because he gets exactly to the point I was missing, and because we're only allowed to accept one answer. :(
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:29
add a comment |
$begingroup$
(Extended from a comment) Recall that a subset $mathcal{D}$ of $mathbb{R}$ is called dense if its closure $bar{mathcal{D}}$ is all of $mathbb{R}$. From this definition, you can readily check that the followings are equivalent for dense subsets $mathcal{D} subset mathbb{R}$:
$$ text{$mathcal{D}$ is closed in $mathbb{R}$} qquad Leftrightarrow qquad text{$mathcal{D} = mathbb{R}$}. $$
In particular, you can't tell much how porous your set $mathcal{D}$ will be only by knowing the density of $mathcal{D}$. There are lots of dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ which is not closed (and hence not all of $mathbb{R})$.
Example. If we pick a sequence $(r_n)_{n=1}^{infty}$ of positive numbers satisfying $sum_{n=1}^{infty} r_n < infty$, then
$$ U = bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} (q_n - r_n, q_n + r_n)$$
is an open set such that $mathbb{Q} subset U$ but $operatorname{Leb}(U) leq sum_{n=1}^{infty} 2r_n < infty$. So there are open dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ with finite length. Notice also that $operatorname{Leb}(U)$ can be made arbitrarily small by choosing suitable $(r_n)$. Another interesting feature of this example is that the boundary $partial U$ has infinite length! In this way, you may think of $U$ as tiny pores of a highly porous material, such as a sponge.
$endgroup$
(Extended from a comment) Recall that a subset $mathcal{D}$ of $mathbb{R}$ is called dense if its closure $bar{mathcal{D}}$ is all of $mathbb{R}$. From this definition, you can readily check that the followings are equivalent for dense subsets $mathcal{D} subset mathbb{R}$:
$$ text{$mathcal{D}$ is closed in $mathbb{R}$} qquad Leftrightarrow qquad text{$mathcal{D} = mathbb{R}$}. $$
In particular, you can't tell much how porous your set $mathcal{D}$ will be only by knowing the density of $mathcal{D}$. There are lots of dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ which is not closed (and hence not all of $mathbb{R})$.
Example. If we pick a sequence $(r_n)_{n=1}^{infty}$ of positive numbers satisfying $sum_{n=1}^{infty} r_n < infty$, then
$$ U = bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} (q_n - r_n, q_n + r_n)$$
is an open set such that $mathbb{Q} subset U$ but $operatorname{Leb}(U) leq sum_{n=1}^{infty} 2r_n < infty$. So there are open dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ with finite length. Notice also that $operatorname{Leb}(U)$ can be made arbitrarily small by choosing suitable $(r_n)$. Another interesting feature of this example is that the boundary $partial U$ has infinite length! In this way, you may think of $U$ as tiny pores of a highly porous material, such as a sponge.
edited Sep 12 '17 at 1:56
Alex Ortiz
10.8k21441
10.8k21441
answered Sep 11 '17 at 18:11
Sangchul LeeSangchul Lee
95.8k12171280
95.8k12171280
1
$begingroup$
(+1) Thank you for your comment and answer, I've found them really helpful! I accepted Alex Kruckman's answer though because he gets exactly to the point I was missing, and because we're only allowed to accept one answer. :(
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:29
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
(+1) Thank you for your comment and answer, I've found them really helpful! I accepted Alex Kruckman's answer though because he gets exactly to the point I was missing, and because we're only allowed to accept one answer. :(
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:29
1
1
$begingroup$
(+1) Thank you for your comment and answer, I've found them really helpful! I accepted Alex Kruckman's answer though because he gets exactly to the point I was missing, and because we're only allowed to accept one answer. :(
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:29
$begingroup$
(+1) Thank you for your comment and answer, I've found them really helpful! I accepted Alex Kruckman's answer though because he gets exactly to the point I was missing, and because we're only allowed to accept one answer. :(
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:29
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The rationals are all contained in $bigcup I_n$ but not all irrationals
are.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The rationals are all contained in $bigcup I_n$ but not all irrationals
are.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The rationals are all contained in $bigcup I_n$ but not all irrationals
are.
$endgroup$
The rationals are all contained in $bigcup I_n$ but not all irrationals
are.
answered Sep 11 '17 at 17:10
Lord Shark the UnknownLord Shark the Unknown
106k1161133
106k1161133
add a comment |
add a comment |
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7
$begingroup$
This strange set you constructed is discussed in this video. It is known for its paradoxical property of being of finite measure, but having all rationals as inner points. Still, it is not all of $Bbb R$.
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Sep 11 '17 at 17:14
8
$begingroup$
A closed subset of $mathbb{R}$ containing all rational numbers must equal $mathbb{R}$ itself. Without closedness, however, nothing can be said. You have just constructed one such non-trivial example.
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 17:22
1
$begingroup$
@SangchulLee This should be the answer.
$endgroup$
– Zach Boyd
Sep 11 '17 at 17:30
$begingroup$
@ZachBoyd, I tried to improve it to an answer :)
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 18:20
$begingroup$
@M.Winter Thank you your comment/answer and thank you for the video too, I've found it really instructive and interesting!! :)
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:43