What is Scrum at scale?











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I am new to the Scrum domain and recently found a "Scrum at scale" workshop near my town. I am a software engineer more inclined to data science. How would scaled Scrum help me become better in managing projects with many stakeholders, and how is it different from standard Scrum?










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  • Is not the purpose of the workshop to find out?
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    yesterday















up vote
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I am new to the Scrum domain and recently found a "Scrum at scale" workshop near my town. I am a software engineer more inclined to data science. How would scaled Scrum help me become better in managing projects with many stakeholders, and how is it different from standard Scrum?










share|improve this question









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  • Is not the purpose of the workshop to find out?
    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    yesterday













up vote
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down vote

favorite
2









up vote
10
down vote

favorite
2






2





I am new to the Scrum domain and recently found a "Scrum at scale" workshop near my town. I am a software engineer more inclined to data science. How would scaled Scrum help me become better in managing projects with many stakeholders, and how is it different from standard Scrum?










share|improve this question









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kinkajou is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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I am new to the Scrum domain and recently found a "Scrum at scale" workshop near my town. I am a software engineer more inclined to data science. How would scaled Scrum help me become better in managing projects with many stakeholders, and how is it different from standard Scrum?







scrum frameworks scrum-at-scale






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edited 2 days ago









Todd A. Jacobs

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  • Is not the purpose of the workshop to find out?
    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    yesterday


















  • Is not the purpose of the workshop to find out?
    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    yesterday
















Is not the purpose of the workshop to find out?
– Lightness Races in Orbit
yesterday




Is not the purpose of the workshop to find out?
– Lightness Races in Orbit
yesterday










3 Answers
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10
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It would not help you with multiple stakeholders.



Scrum is already meant to deal with multiple stakeholders (and a single Product Owner consolidating their needs into a single prioritized product backlog). Scrum at scale is meant to help you with projects so large that you need multiple teams.



If you want to know how to better cope with your stakeholders, a Product Owner training would be the better choice.






share|improve this answer





















  • Thanks. Is scrum at scale good for moving into project management career? or Is it more for techie.
    – kinkajou
    2 days ago










  • It's more for project management, but there might be better steps forward depending on what you want to do.
    – nvoigt
    2 days ago


















up vote
7
down vote













TL;DR



Scrum@Scale is a specific framework developed by Jeff Sutherland and Scrum, Inc. for scaling Scrum beyond a single team. More generally, scaled Scrum (or "Scrum at [enterprise] scale") refers to the frameworks and practices required to apply Scrum concepts across multiple teams, which is often a requirement on very large or complex enterprise projects (e.g. "at scale").



Standard Scrum already handles multiple stakeholders. Scaled Scrum frameworks target programs with multiple teams. Managing stakeholders is a the function of the Product Owner in standard Scrum, but may be part of other roles (or even belong to entire teams) in other frameworks.



The Problems



At heart, Scrum is a framework for developing a product from a singular Product Backlog serviced by one unitary Scrum team. Over time, various approaches to scaling Scrum beyond a single team have been promoted within the agile community. Regardless of the framework, they all attempt to solve one or more of the following problems:




  • Management of very large (or even multiple) backlogs.

  • Cross-team estimation practices.

  • Resource leveling across teams.

  • Inter-team communications.

  • Multi-product architecture.

  • Multi-team and multi-product integration.

  • Executive/stakeholder resource limitations.

  • Portfolio management across a complex set of programs or projects.

  • Metrics and reporting for multi-team efforts.


This is not an exhaustive list, but the theme of "multiple teams" is one that Scrum doesn't natively tackle.



Survey of the Scaled Scrum Landscape



Various frameworks and scaling mechanisms that are used to scale Scrum beyond a single team include:




  • Scrum-of-Scrums

  • MetaScrum

  • Nexus

  • Scrum@Scale

  • Large Scale Scrum (LeSS)

  • Scaled Agile Framework for Lean Enterprises (SAFe)


NB: SAFe uses Scrum at the team level, but is arguably not truly an attempt to scale Scrum itself at the enterprise level. Instead, it uses other mechanisms and frameworks at different organizational levels. Whether you include it in "scaled Scrum" is a matter of taste, but as one of the more well-known scaled frameworks I chose to include it here for completeness.



Other agile approaches such as Lean, Kanban, DevOps, and so forth are not included in this list as they aren't inherently based on Scrum. Nevertheless, the issues of scaling are often present regardless of the framework, and must be addressed in any multi-team or multi-departmental approach to agility.






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    up vote
    0
    down vote













    Well, in my opinion, "scrum at scale" is trying to grapple with the real-world issue that – yes, in my opinion – "scrum is an over-simplification." Understand this, and you'll be fine. "Scrum" has many useful ideas for project and team organization, but it rather likes to preach.



    My advice is simply: "use Scrum," because it is indeed useful, but "don't entirely believe it." Sip the kool-aid but don't drink the entire jar. Keep it in perspective.



    Real-world software systems commonly "touch" many different organizational departments and activities, and interact with other projects in ways that impose hard constraints that no single team can solve, or necessarily even see. Of course this does not obviate the value of a "scrum" organization and workflow within that team.



    "Scrum at scale" argues that scrum-style organization should nevertheless be applied at multiple levels, so that different "scrum" teams are managed in a "scrum" fashion until one "über-scrum master" rules them all. I will candidly express my opinion that this is effectively nonsense. The methodology, in my candid opinion, "does not scale," and ought not be expected to do so. Due to the time and expense inherent in all software projects, plus their over-arching influence upon the business as a whole, "this is what we have vice-presidents for," and it is why their decisions are always compromises.



    === EDIT:



    In an attempt to clarify the above-expressed opinion as to "why Scrum cannot or should not scale," at Todd Jacobs' request I will now add to my previous comments without eliding them.



    I would now make the observation that all projects are defined with scope-and-boundaries within which management hopes that the "Scrum" methodology will produce satisfactory results in the appointed budget and time, and with acceptable business risk. But, if we then attempt to apply "scrum" at higher levels within the organization, we quickly reach levels of abstraction and levels of concern which impact the business as a whole, and for which the (inherently risky) "exploratory methods" championed by "Scrum" are no longer applicable or even safe. This is what I was alluding to when I said, "that's why we have vice-presidents, and that's why their decisions are always compromises." They don't make their fuzzy high-stakes choices based on the same principles that "scrum" holds dear – they can't, and they shouldn't.



    Real-world projects are often interlocked with other projects by technical, business, business-risk and financial concerns that can't be changed, so each project must be architected to consider them. Scrum-based teams then work within those determined boundaries in an earnest effort to self-select and self-optimize their activities.



    However, careful delineation of these boundaries – which is not left up to the team – is in my opinion an essential part of the reason why "scrum" is perceived to be a workable strategy. It is in my view a micro- strategy but not a macro- one.



    It is, one might say, a "risky" approach, but when that risk is well-constrained it might prove to be a benefit. But if the same concepts are then elevated to higher levels within the organizational tree, I believe that these risks become untenable. We already know how to let executives make decisions at those levels. My opinion is that we should let scrum, instead, "bloom where it is planted, and where it sometimes does bloom," namely, at the leaves of the organizational project-tree, making each project's outcome the best that scrum can make it be.






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    • 1




      So, scrum at scale is just another buzz?
      – kinkajou
      2 days ago






    • 1




      Welcome to PMSE. As written, this is largely a rant. It cites no references (of which there are many) and presents an opinion without supporting evidence. The answer could certainly be rewritten to explain why you think Scrum can't (or shouldn't) scale without coming across as an unsupported minority opinion.
      – Todd A. Jacobs
      2 days ago






    • 1




      Okay, Todd, I've now tried to do exactly that. As you see, I added text to the end of the previous answer without editing its previous content. (I felt that this was best.) Thank you for your guidance.
      – Mike Robinson
      2 days ago











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    3 Answers
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    3 Answers
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    up vote
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    It would not help you with multiple stakeholders.



    Scrum is already meant to deal with multiple stakeholders (and a single Product Owner consolidating their needs into a single prioritized product backlog). Scrum at scale is meant to help you with projects so large that you need multiple teams.



    If you want to know how to better cope with your stakeholders, a Product Owner training would be the better choice.






    share|improve this answer





















    • Thanks. Is scrum at scale good for moving into project management career? or Is it more for techie.
      – kinkajou
      2 days ago










    • It's more for project management, but there might be better steps forward depending on what you want to do.
      – nvoigt
      2 days ago















    up vote
    10
    down vote













    It would not help you with multiple stakeholders.



    Scrum is already meant to deal with multiple stakeholders (and a single Product Owner consolidating their needs into a single prioritized product backlog). Scrum at scale is meant to help you with projects so large that you need multiple teams.



    If you want to know how to better cope with your stakeholders, a Product Owner training would be the better choice.






    share|improve this answer





















    • Thanks. Is scrum at scale good for moving into project management career? or Is it more for techie.
      – kinkajou
      2 days ago










    • It's more for project management, but there might be better steps forward depending on what you want to do.
      – nvoigt
      2 days ago













    up vote
    10
    down vote










    up vote
    10
    down vote









    It would not help you with multiple stakeholders.



    Scrum is already meant to deal with multiple stakeholders (and a single Product Owner consolidating their needs into a single prioritized product backlog). Scrum at scale is meant to help you with projects so large that you need multiple teams.



    If you want to know how to better cope with your stakeholders, a Product Owner training would be the better choice.






    share|improve this answer












    It would not help you with multiple stakeholders.



    Scrum is already meant to deal with multiple stakeholders (and a single Product Owner consolidating their needs into a single prioritized product backlog). Scrum at scale is meant to help you with projects so large that you need multiple teams.



    If you want to know how to better cope with your stakeholders, a Product Owner training would be the better choice.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 2 days ago









    nvoigt

    2,999715




    2,999715












    • Thanks. Is scrum at scale good for moving into project management career? or Is it more for techie.
      – kinkajou
      2 days ago










    • It's more for project management, but there might be better steps forward depending on what you want to do.
      – nvoigt
      2 days ago


















    • Thanks. Is scrum at scale good for moving into project management career? or Is it more for techie.
      – kinkajou
      2 days ago










    • It's more for project management, but there might be better steps forward depending on what you want to do.
      – nvoigt
      2 days ago
















    Thanks. Is scrum at scale good for moving into project management career? or Is it more for techie.
    – kinkajou
    2 days ago




    Thanks. Is scrum at scale good for moving into project management career? or Is it more for techie.
    – kinkajou
    2 days ago












    It's more for project management, but there might be better steps forward depending on what you want to do.
    – nvoigt
    2 days ago




    It's more for project management, but there might be better steps forward depending on what you want to do.
    – nvoigt
    2 days ago










    up vote
    7
    down vote













    TL;DR



    Scrum@Scale is a specific framework developed by Jeff Sutherland and Scrum, Inc. for scaling Scrum beyond a single team. More generally, scaled Scrum (or "Scrum at [enterprise] scale") refers to the frameworks and practices required to apply Scrum concepts across multiple teams, which is often a requirement on very large or complex enterprise projects (e.g. "at scale").



    Standard Scrum already handles multiple stakeholders. Scaled Scrum frameworks target programs with multiple teams. Managing stakeholders is a the function of the Product Owner in standard Scrum, but may be part of other roles (or even belong to entire teams) in other frameworks.



    The Problems



    At heart, Scrum is a framework for developing a product from a singular Product Backlog serviced by one unitary Scrum team. Over time, various approaches to scaling Scrum beyond a single team have been promoted within the agile community. Regardless of the framework, they all attempt to solve one or more of the following problems:




    • Management of very large (or even multiple) backlogs.

    • Cross-team estimation practices.

    • Resource leveling across teams.

    • Inter-team communications.

    • Multi-product architecture.

    • Multi-team and multi-product integration.

    • Executive/stakeholder resource limitations.

    • Portfolio management across a complex set of programs or projects.

    • Metrics and reporting for multi-team efforts.


    This is not an exhaustive list, but the theme of "multiple teams" is one that Scrum doesn't natively tackle.



    Survey of the Scaled Scrum Landscape



    Various frameworks and scaling mechanisms that are used to scale Scrum beyond a single team include:




    • Scrum-of-Scrums

    • MetaScrum

    • Nexus

    • Scrum@Scale

    • Large Scale Scrum (LeSS)

    • Scaled Agile Framework for Lean Enterprises (SAFe)


    NB: SAFe uses Scrum at the team level, but is arguably not truly an attempt to scale Scrum itself at the enterprise level. Instead, it uses other mechanisms and frameworks at different organizational levels. Whether you include it in "scaled Scrum" is a matter of taste, but as one of the more well-known scaled frameworks I chose to include it here for completeness.



    Other agile approaches such as Lean, Kanban, DevOps, and so forth are not included in this list as they aren't inherently based on Scrum. Nevertheless, the issues of scaling are often present regardless of the framework, and must be addressed in any multi-team or multi-departmental approach to agility.






    share|improve this answer



























      up vote
      7
      down vote













      TL;DR



      Scrum@Scale is a specific framework developed by Jeff Sutherland and Scrum, Inc. for scaling Scrum beyond a single team. More generally, scaled Scrum (or "Scrum at [enterprise] scale") refers to the frameworks and practices required to apply Scrum concepts across multiple teams, which is often a requirement on very large or complex enterprise projects (e.g. "at scale").



      Standard Scrum already handles multiple stakeholders. Scaled Scrum frameworks target programs with multiple teams. Managing stakeholders is a the function of the Product Owner in standard Scrum, but may be part of other roles (or even belong to entire teams) in other frameworks.



      The Problems



      At heart, Scrum is a framework for developing a product from a singular Product Backlog serviced by one unitary Scrum team. Over time, various approaches to scaling Scrum beyond a single team have been promoted within the agile community. Regardless of the framework, they all attempt to solve one or more of the following problems:




      • Management of very large (or even multiple) backlogs.

      • Cross-team estimation practices.

      • Resource leveling across teams.

      • Inter-team communications.

      • Multi-product architecture.

      • Multi-team and multi-product integration.

      • Executive/stakeholder resource limitations.

      • Portfolio management across a complex set of programs or projects.

      • Metrics and reporting for multi-team efforts.


      This is not an exhaustive list, but the theme of "multiple teams" is one that Scrum doesn't natively tackle.



      Survey of the Scaled Scrum Landscape



      Various frameworks and scaling mechanisms that are used to scale Scrum beyond a single team include:




      • Scrum-of-Scrums

      • MetaScrum

      • Nexus

      • Scrum@Scale

      • Large Scale Scrum (LeSS)

      • Scaled Agile Framework for Lean Enterprises (SAFe)


      NB: SAFe uses Scrum at the team level, but is arguably not truly an attempt to scale Scrum itself at the enterprise level. Instead, it uses other mechanisms and frameworks at different organizational levels. Whether you include it in "scaled Scrum" is a matter of taste, but as one of the more well-known scaled frameworks I chose to include it here for completeness.



      Other agile approaches such as Lean, Kanban, DevOps, and so forth are not included in this list as they aren't inherently based on Scrum. Nevertheless, the issues of scaling are often present regardless of the framework, and must be addressed in any multi-team or multi-departmental approach to agility.






      share|improve this answer

























        up vote
        7
        down vote










        up vote
        7
        down vote









        TL;DR



        Scrum@Scale is a specific framework developed by Jeff Sutherland and Scrum, Inc. for scaling Scrum beyond a single team. More generally, scaled Scrum (or "Scrum at [enterprise] scale") refers to the frameworks and practices required to apply Scrum concepts across multiple teams, which is often a requirement on very large or complex enterprise projects (e.g. "at scale").



        Standard Scrum already handles multiple stakeholders. Scaled Scrum frameworks target programs with multiple teams. Managing stakeholders is a the function of the Product Owner in standard Scrum, but may be part of other roles (or even belong to entire teams) in other frameworks.



        The Problems



        At heart, Scrum is a framework for developing a product from a singular Product Backlog serviced by one unitary Scrum team. Over time, various approaches to scaling Scrum beyond a single team have been promoted within the agile community. Regardless of the framework, they all attempt to solve one or more of the following problems:




        • Management of very large (or even multiple) backlogs.

        • Cross-team estimation practices.

        • Resource leveling across teams.

        • Inter-team communications.

        • Multi-product architecture.

        • Multi-team and multi-product integration.

        • Executive/stakeholder resource limitations.

        • Portfolio management across a complex set of programs or projects.

        • Metrics and reporting for multi-team efforts.


        This is not an exhaustive list, but the theme of "multiple teams" is one that Scrum doesn't natively tackle.



        Survey of the Scaled Scrum Landscape



        Various frameworks and scaling mechanisms that are used to scale Scrum beyond a single team include:




        • Scrum-of-Scrums

        • MetaScrum

        • Nexus

        • Scrum@Scale

        • Large Scale Scrum (LeSS)

        • Scaled Agile Framework for Lean Enterprises (SAFe)


        NB: SAFe uses Scrum at the team level, but is arguably not truly an attempt to scale Scrum itself at the enterprise level. Instead, it uses other mechanisms and frameworks at different organizational levels. Whether you include it in "scaled Scrum" is a matter of taste, but as one of the more well-known scaled frameworks I chose to include it here for completeness.



        Other agile approaches such as Lean, Kanban, DevOps, and so forth are not included in this list as they aren't inherently based on Scrum. Nevertheless, the issues of scaling are often present regardless of the framework, and must be addressed in any multi-team or multi-departmental approach to agility.






        share|improve this answer














        TL;DR



        Scrum@Scale is a specific framework developed by Jeff Sutherland and Scrum, Inc. for scaling Scrum beyond a single team. More generally, scaled Scrum (or "Scrum at [enterprise] scale") refers to the frameworks and practices required to apply Scrum concepts across multiple teams, which is often a requirement on very large or complex enterprise projects (e.g. "at scale").



        Standard Scrum already handles multiple stakeholders. Scaled Scrum frameworks target programs with multiple teams. Managing stakeholders is a the function of the Product Owner in standard Scrum, but may be part of other roles (or even belong to entire teams) in other frameworks.



        The Problems



        At heart, Scrum is a framework for developing a product from a singular Product Backlog serviced by one unitary Scrum team. Over time, various approaches to scaling Scrum beyond a single team have been promoted within the agile community. Regardless of the framework, they all attempt to solve one or more of the following problems:




        • Management of very large (or even multiple) backlogs.

        • Cross-team estimation practices.

        • Resource leveling across teams.

        • Inter-team communications.

        • Multi-product architecture.

        • Multi-team and multi-product integration.

        • Executive/stakeholder resource limitations.

        • Portfolio management across a complex set of programs or projects.

        • Metrics and reporting for multi-team efforts.


        This is not an exhaustive list, but the theme of "multiple teams" is one that Scrum doesn't natively tackle.



        Survey of the Scaled Scrum Landscape



        Various frameworks and scaling mechanisms that are used to scale Scrum beyond a single team include:




        • Scrum-of-Scrums

        • MetaScrum

        • Nexus

        • Scrum@Scale

        • Large Scale Scrum (LeSS)

        • Scaled Agile Framework for Lean Enterprises (SAFe)


        NB: SAFe uses Scrum at the team level, but is arguably not truly an attempt to scale Scrum itself at the enterprise level. Instead, it uses other mechanisms and frameworks at different organizational levels. Whether you include it in "scaled Scrum" is a matter of taste, but as one of the more well-known scaled frameworks I chose to include it here for completeness.



        Other agile approaches such as Lean, Kanban, DevOps, and so forth are not included in this list as they aren't inherently based on Scrum. Nevertheless, the issues of scaling are often present regardless of the framework, and must be addressed in any multi-team or multi-departmental approach to agility.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 2 days ago

























        answered 2 days ago









        Todd A. Jacobs

        31.2k329110




        31.2k329110






















            up vote
            0
            down vote













            Well, in my opinion, "scrum at scale" is trying to grapple with the real-world issue that – yes, in my opinion – "scrum is an over-simplification." Understand this, and you'll be fine. "Scrum" has many useful ideas for project and team organization, but it rather likes to preach.



            My advice is simply: "use Scrum," because it is indeed useful, but "don't entirely believe it." Sip the kool-aid but don't drink the entire jar. Keep it in perspective.



            Real-world software systems commonly "touch" many different organizational departments and activities, and interact with other projects in ways that impose hard constraints that no single team can solve, or necessarily even see. Of course this does not obviate the value of a "scrum" organization and workflow within that team.



            "Scrum at scale" argues that scrum-style organization should nevertheless be applied at multiple levels, so that different "scrum" teams are managed in a "scrum" fashion until one "über-scrum master" rules them all. I will candidly express my opinion that this is effectively nonsense. The methodology, in my candid opinion, "does not scale," and ought not be expected to do so. Due to the time and expense inherent in all software projects, plus their over-arching influence upon the business as a whole, "this is what we have vice-presidents for," and it is why their decisions are always compromises.



            === EDIT:



            In an attempt to clarify the above-expressed opinion as to "why Scrum cannot or should not scale," at Todd Jacobs' request I will now add to my previous comments without eliding them.



            I would now make the observation that all projects are defined with scope-and-boundaries within which management hopes that the "Scrum" methodology will produce satisfactory results in the appointed budget and time, and with acceptable business risk. But, if we then attempt to apply "scrum" at higher levels within the organization, we quickly reach levels of abstraction and levels of concern which impact the business as a whole, and for which the (inherently risky) "exploratory methods" championed by "Scrum" are no longer applicable or even safe. This is what I was alluding to when I said, "that's why we have vice-presidents, and that's why their decisions are always compromises." They don't make their fuzzy high-stakes choices based on the same principles that "scrum" holds dear – they can't, and they shouldn't.



            Real-world projects are often interlocked with other projects by technical, business, business-risk and financial concerns that can't be changed, so each project must be architected to consider them. Scrum-based teams then work within those determined boundaries in an earnest effort to self-select and self-optimize their activities.



            However, careful delineation of these boundaries – which is not left up to the team – is in my opinion an essential part of the reason why "scrum" is perceived to be a workable strategy. It is in my view a micro- strategy but not a macro- one.



            It is, one might say, a "risky" approach, but when that risk is well-constrained it might prove to be a benefit. But if the same concepts are then elevated to higher levels within the organizational tree, I believe that these risks become untenable. We already know how to let executives make decisions at those levels. My opinion is that we should let scrum, instead, "bloom where it is planted, and where it sometimes does bloom," namely, at the leaves of the organizational project-tree, making each project's outcome the best that scrum can make it be.






            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            Mike Robinson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.














            • 1




              So, scrum at scale is just another buzz?
              – kinkajou
              2 days ago






            • 1




              Welcome to PMSE. As written, this is largely a rant. It cites no references (of which there are many) and presents an opinion without supporting evidence. The answer could certainly be rewritten to explain why you think Scrum can't (or shouldn't) scale without coming across as an unsupported minority opinion.
              – Todd A. Jacobs
              2 days ago






            • 1




              Okay, Todd, I've now tried to do exactly that. As you see, I added text to the end of the previous answer without editing its previous content. (I felt that this was best.) Thank you for your guidance.
              – Mike Robinson
              2 days ago















            up vote
            0
            down vote













            Well, in my opinion, "scrum at scale" is trying to grapple with the real-world issue that – yes, in my opinion – "scrum is an over-simplification." Understand this, and you'll be fine. "Scrum" has many useful ideas for project and team organization, but it rather likes to preach.



            My advice is simply: "use Scrum," because it is indeed useful, but "don't entirely believe it." Sip the kool-aid but don't drink the entire jar. Keep it in perspective.



            Real-world software systems commonly "touch" many different organizational departments and activities, and interact with other projects in ways that impose hard constraints that no single team can solve, or necessarily even see. Of course this does not obviate the value of a "scrum" organization and workflow within that team.



            "Scrum at scale" argues that scrum-style organization should nevertheless be applied at multiple levels, so that different "scrum" teams are managed in a "scrum" fashion until one "über-scrum master" rules them all. I will candidly express my opinion that this is effectively nonsense. The methodology, in my candid opinion, "does not scale," and ought not be expected to do so. Due to the time and expense inherent in all software projects, plus their over-arching influence upon the business as a whole, "this is what we have vice-presidents for," and it is why their decisions are always compromises.



            === EDIT:



            In an attempt to clarify the above-expressed opinion as to "why Scrum cannot or should not scale," at Todd Jacobs' request I will now add to my previous comments without eliding them.



            I would now make the observation that all projects are defined with scope-and-boundaries within which management hopes that the "Scrum" methodology will produce satisfactory results in the appointed budget and time, and with acceptable business risk. But, if we then attempt to apply "scrum" at higher levels within the organization, we quickly reach levels of abstraction and levels of concern which impact the business as a whole, and for which the (inherently risky) "exploratory methods" championed by "Scrum" are no longer applicable or even safe. This is what I was alluding to when I said, "that's why we have vice-presidents, and that's why their decisions are always compromises." They don't make their fuzzy high-stakes choices based on the same principles that "scrum" holds dear – they can't, and they shouldn't.



            Real-world projects are often interlocked with other projects by technical, business, business-risk and financial concerns that can't be changed, so each project must be architected to consider them. Scrum-based teams then work within those determined boundaries in an earnest effort to self-select and self-optimize their activities.



            However, careful delineation of these boundaries – which is not left up to the team – is in my opinion an essential part of the reason why "scrum" is perceived to be a workable strategy. It is in my view a micro- strategy but not a macro- one.



            It is, one might say, a "risky" approach, but when that risk is well-constrained it might prove to be a benefit. But if the same concepts are then elevated to higher levels within the organizational tree, I believe that these risks become untenable. We already know how to let executives make decisions at those levels. My opinion is that we should let scrum, instead, "bloom where it is planted, and where it sometimes does bloom," namely, at the leaves of the organizational project-tree, making each project's outcome the best that scrum can make it be.






            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            Mike Robinson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.














            • 1




              So, scrum at scale is just another buzz?
              – kinkajou
              2 days ago






            • 1




              Welcome to PMSE. As written, this is largely a rant. It cites no references (of which there are many) and presents an opinion without supporting evidence. The answer could certainly be rewritten to explain why you think Scrum can't (or shouldn't) scale without coming across as an unsupported minority opinion.
              – Todd A. Jacobs
              2 days ago






            • 1




              Okay, Todd, I've now tried to do exactly that. As you see, I added text to the end of the previous answer without editing its previous content. (I felt that this was best.) Thank you for your guidance.
              – Mike Robinson
              2 days ago













            up vote
            0
            down vote










            up vote
            0
            down vote









            Well, in my opinion, "scrum at scale" is trying to grapple with the real-world issue that – yes, in my opinion – "scrum is an over-simplification." Understand this, and you'll be fine. "Scrum" has many useful ideas for project and team organization, but it rather likes to preach.



            My advice is simply: "use Scrum," because it is indeed useful, but "don't entirely believe it." Sip the kool-aid but don't drink the entire jar. Keep it in perspective.



            Real-world software systems commonly "touch" many different organizational departments and activities, and interact with other projects in ways that impose hard constraints that no single team can solve, or necessarily even see. Of course this does not obviate the value of a "scrum" organization and workflow within that team.



            "Scrum at scale" argues that scrum-style organization should nevertheless be applied at multiple levels, so that different "scrum" teams are managed in a "scrum" fashion until one "über-scrum master" rules them all. I will candidly express my opinion that this is effectively nonsense. The methodology, in my candid opinion, "does not scale," and ought not be expected to do so. Due to the time and expense inherent in all software projects, plus their over-arching influence upon the business as a whole, "this is what we have vice-presidents for," and it is why their decisions are always compromises.



            === EDIT:



            In an attempt to clarify the above-expressed opinion as to "why Scrum cannot or should not scale," at Todd Jacobs' request I will now add to my previous comments without eliding them.



            I would now make the observation that all projects are defined with scope-and-boundaries within which management hopes that the "Scrum" methodology will produce satisfactory results in the appointed budget and time, and with acceptable business risk. But, if we then attempt to apply "scrum" at higher levels within the organization, we quickly reach levels of abstraction and levels of concern which impact the business as a whole, and for which the (inherently risky) "exploratory methods" championed by "Scrum" are no longer applicable or even safe. This is what I was alluding to when I said, "that's why we have vice-presidents, and that's why their decisions are always compromises." They don't make their fuzzy high-stakes choices based on the same principles that "scrum" holds dear – they can't, and they shouldn't.



            Real-world projects are often interlocked with other projects by technical, business, business-risk and financial concerns that can't be changed, so each project must be architected to consider them. Scrum-based teams then work within those determined boundaries in an earnest effort to self-select and self-optimize their activities.



            However, careful delineation of these boundaries – which is not left up to the team – is in my opinion an essential part of the reason why "scrum" is perceived to be a workable strategy. It is in my view a micro- strategy but not a macro- one.



            It is, one might say, a "risky" approach, but when that risk is well-constrained it might prove to be a benefit. But if the same concepts are then elevated to higher levels within the organizational tree, I believe that these risks become untenable. We already know how to let executives make decisions at those levels. My opinion is that we should let scrum, instead, "bloom where it is planted, and where it sometimes does bloom," namely, at the leaves of the organizational project-tree, making each project's outcome the best that scrum can make it be.






            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            Mike Robinson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            Well, in my opinion, "scrum at scale" is trying to grapple with the real-world issue that – yes, in my opinion – "scrum is an over-simplification." Understand this, and you'll be fine. "Scrum" has many useful ideas for project and team organization, but it rather likes to preach.



            My advice is simply: "use Scrum," because it is indeed useful, but "don't entirely believe it." Sip the kool-aid but don't drink the entire jar. Keep it in perspective.



            Real-world software systems commonly "touch" many different organizational departments and activities, and interact with other projects in ways that impose hard constraints that no single team can solve, or necessarily even see. Of course this does not obviate the value of a "scrum" organization and workflow within that team.



            "Scrum at scale" argues that scrum-style organization should nevertheless be applied at multiple levels, so that different "scrum" teams are managed in a "scrum" fashion until one "über-scrum master" rules them all. I will candidly express my opinion that this is effectively nonsense. The methodology, in my candid opinion, "does not scale," and ought not be expected to do so. Due to the time and expense inherent in all software projects, plus their over-arching influence upon the business as a whole, "this is what we have vice-presidents for," and it is why their decisions are always compromises.



            === EDIT:



            In an attempt to clarify the above-expressed opinion as to "why Scrum cannot or should not scale," at Todd Jacobs' request I will now add to my previous comments without eliding them.



            I would now make the observation that all projects are defined with scope-and-boundaries within which management hopes that the "Scrum" methodology will produce satisfactory results in the appointed budget and time, and with acceptable business risk. But, if we then attempt to apply "scrum" at higher levels within the organization, we quickly reach levels of abstraction and levels of concern which impact the business as a whole, and for which the (inherently risky) "exploratory methods" championed by "Scrum" are no longer applicable or even safe. This is what I was alluding to when I said, "that's why we have vice-presidents, and that's why their decisions are always compromises." They don't make their fuzzy high-stakes choices based on the same principles that "scrum" holds dear – they can't, and they shouldn't.



            Real-world projects are often interlocked with other projects by technical, business, business-risk and financial concerns that can't be changed, so each project must be architected to consider them. Scrum-based teams then work within those determined boundaries in an earnest effort to self-select and self-optimize their activities.



            However, careful delineation of these boundaries – which is not left up to the team – is in my opinion an essential part of the reason why "scrum" is perceived to be a workable strategy. It is in my view a micro- strategy but not a macro- one.



            It is, one might say, a "risky" approach, but when that risk is well-constrained it might prove to be a benefit. But if the same concepts are then elevated to higher levels within the organizational tree, I believe that these risks become untenable. We already know how to let executives make decisions at those levels. My opinion is that we should let scrum, instead, "bloom where it is planted, and where it sometimes does bloom," namely, at the leaves of the organizational project-tree, making each project's outcome the best that scrum can make it be.







            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            Mike Robinson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 2 days ago





















            New contributor




            Mike Robinson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            answered 2 days ago









            Mike Robinson

            1853




            1853




            New contributor




            Mike Robinson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.





            New contributor





            Mike Robinson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.






            Mike Robinson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.








            • 1




              So, scrum at scale is just another buzz?
              – kinkajou
              2 days ago






            • 1




              Welcome to PMSE. As written, this is largely a rant. It cites no references (of which there are many) and presents an opinion without supporting evidence. The answer could certainly be rewritten to explain why you think Scrum can't (or shouldn't) scale without coming across as an unsupported minority opinion.
              – Todd A. Jacobs
              2 days ago






            • 1




              Okay, Todd, I've now tried to do exactly that. As you see, I added text to the end of the previous answer without editing its previous content. (I felt that this was best.) Thank you for your guidance.
              – Mike Robinson
              2 days ago














            • 1




              So, scrum at scale is just another buzz?
              – kinkajou
              2 days ago






            • 1




              Welcome to PMSE. As written, this is largely a rant. It cites no references (of which there are many) and presents an opinion without supporting evidence. The answer could certainly be rewritten to explain why you think Scrum can't (or shouldn't) scale without coming across as an unsupported minority opinion.
              – Todd A. Jacobs
              2 days ago






            • 1




              Okay, Todd, I've now tried to do exactly that. As you see, I added text to the end of the previous answer without editing its previous content. (I felt that this was best.) Thank you for your guidance.
              – Mike Robinson
              2 days ago








            1




            1




            So, scrum at scale is just another buzz?
            – kinkajou
            2 days ago




            So, scrum at scale is just another buzz?
            – kinkajou
            2 days ago




            1




            1




            Welcome to PMSE. As written, this is largely a rant. It cites no references (of which there are many) and presents an opinion without supporting evidence. The answer could certainly be rewritten to explain why you think Scrum can't (or shouldn't) scale without coming across as an unsupported minority opinion.
            – Todd A. Jacobs
            2 days ago




            Welcome to PMSE. As written, this is largely a rant. It cites no references (of which there are many) and presents an opinion without supporting evidence. The answer could certainly be rewritten to explain why you think Scrum can't (or shouldn't) scale without coming across as an unsupported minority opinion.
            – Todd A. Jacobs
            2 days ago




            1




            1




            Okay, Todd, I've now tried to do exactly that. As you see, I added text to the end of the previous answer without editing its previous content. (I felt that this was best.) Thank you for your guidance.
            – Mike Robinson
            2 days ago




            Okay, Todd, I've now tried to do exactly that. As you see, I added text to the end of the previous answer without editing its previous content. (I felt that this was best.) Thank you for your guidance.
            – Mike Robinson
            2 days ago










            kinkajou is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










             

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            kinkajou is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.













            kinkajou is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












            kinkajou is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.















             


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