$(mathbb Z/p mathbb Z rtimes mathbb Z/q mathbb Z) times mathbb Z/q mathbb Z congmathbb Z/p mathbb Z rtimes...











up vote
4
down vote

favorite












Given:



Let $p$ and $q$ be prime numbers such that $q$ divides $p-1$.



It is well-know that there is a monomorphism $varphi: mathbb Z/q mathbb Z to Aut(mathbb Z/p mathbb Z)$.



Define homomorphisms $varsigma: (mathbb Z/q mathbb Z)^2 to mathbb Z/ q mathbb Z$ where $(a,b) mapsto a-b$ and $vartheta: (mathbb Z/q mathbb Z)^2 to Aut(mathbb Z/p mathbb Z)$ via $vartheta = varphi circ varsigma$.



Note that composition of maps is evaluated from right to left.



Question:



If we consider the semi-direct products $G := (mathbb Z/p mathbb Z rtimes_varphi mathbb Z/q mathbb Z) times mathbb Z/q mathbb Z$ and $H := mathbb Z/p mathbb Z rtimes_vartheta (mathbb Z/q mathbb Z)^2$, are these groups isomorphic?



Thoughts:



My intuition says: No, $G$ and $H$ are not isomorphic. But I am unsure how to prove this hypothesis. I tried to evaluate the centers $Z(G)$ and $Z(H)$ of $G$ and $H$, respectively, which gave me $Z(G) = {(0,0)} times mathbb Z/q mathbb Z$ and ${(0,r,r): r in mathbb Z/q mathbb Z} subseteq Z(H)$.



Makes this line of attack sense? Or is the required argument quite obvious?



Thank you very much for your insights!



Context:



I stumbled upon this question while reading a collection of problems about group theory which interested me as a layperson.










share|cite|improve this question


























    up vote
    4
    down vote

    favorite












    Given:



    Let $p$ and $q$ be prime numbers such that $q$ divides $p-1$.



    It is well-know that there is a monomorphism $varphi: mathbb Z/q mathbb Z to Aut(mathbb Z/p mathbb Z)$.



    Define homomorphisms $varsigma: (mathbb Z/q mathbb Z)^2 to mathbb Z/ q mathbb Z$ where $(a,b) mapsto a-b$ and $vartheta: (mathbb Z/q mathbb Z)^2 to Aut(mathbb Z/p mathbb Z)$ via $vartheta = varphi circ varsigma$.



    Note that composition of maps is evaluated from right to left.



    Question:



    If we consider the semi-direct products $G := (mathbb Z/p mathbb Z rtimes_varphi mathbb Z/q mathbb Z) times mathbb Z/q mathbb Z$ and $H := mathbb Z/p mathbb Z rtimes_vartheta (mathbb Z/q mathbb Z)^2$, are these groups isomorphic?



    Thoughts:



    My intuition says: No, $G$ and $H$ are not isomorphic. But I am unsure how to prove this hypothesis. I tried to evaluate the centers $Z(G)$ and $Z(H)$ of $G$ and $H$, respectively, which gave me $Z(G) = {(0,0)} times mathbb Z/q mathbb Z$ and ${(0,r,r): r in mathbb Z/q mathbb Z} subseteq Z(H)$.



    Makes this line of attack sense? Or is the required argument quite obvious?



    Thank you very much for your insights!



    Context:



    I stumbled upon this question while reading a collection of problems about group theory which interested me as a layperson.










    share|cite|improve this question
























      up vote
      4
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      4
      down vote

      favorite











      Given:



      Let $p$ and $q$ be prime numbers such that $q$ divides $p-1$.



      It is well-know that there is a monomorphism $varphi: mathbb Z/q mathbb Z to Aut(mathbb Z/p mathbb Z)$.



      Define homomorphisms $varsigma: (mathbb Z/q mathbb Z)^2 to mathbb Z/ q mathbb Z$ where $(a,b) mapsto a-b$ and $vartheta: (mathbb Z/q mathbb Z)^2 to Aut(mathbb Z/p mathbb Z)$ via $vartheta = varphi circ varsigma$.



      Note that composition of maps is evaluated from right to left.



      Question:



      If we consider the semi-direct products $G := (mathbb Z/p mathbb Z rtimes_varphi mathbb Z/q mathbb Z) times mathbb Z/q mathbb Z$ and $H := mathbb Z/p mathbb Z rtimes_vartheta (mathbb Z/q mathbb Z)^2$, are these groups isomorphic?



      Thoughts:



      My intuition says: No, $G$ and $H$ are not isomorphic. But I am unsure how to prove this hypothesis. I tried to evaluate the centers $Z(G)$ and $Z(H)$ of $G$ and $H$, respectively, which gave me $Z(G) = {(0,0)} times mathbb Z/q mathbb Z$ and ${(0,r,r): r in mathbb Z/q mathbb Z} subseteq Z(H)$.



      Makes this line of attack sense? Or is the required argument quite obvious?



      Thank you very much for your insights!



      Context:



      I stumbled upon this question while reading a collection of problems about group theory which interested me as a layperson.










      share|cite|improve this question













      Given:



      Let $p$ and $q$ be prime numbers such that $q$ divides $p-1$.



      It is well-know that there is a monomorphism $varphi: mathbb Z/q mathbb Z to Aut(mathbb Z/p mathbb Z)$.



      Define homomorphisms $varsigma: (mathbb Z/q mathbb Z)^2 to mathbb Z/ q mathbb Z$ where $(a,b) mapsto a-b$ and $vartheta: (mathbb Z/q mathbb Z)^2 to Aut(mathbb Z/p mathbb Z)$ via $vartheta = varphi circ varsigma$.



      Note that composition of maps is evaluated from right to left.



      Question:



      If we consider the semi-direct products $G := (mathbb Z/p mathbb Z rtimes_varphi mathbb Z/q mathbb Z) times mathbb Z/q mathbb Z$ and $H := mathbb Z/p mathbb Z rtimes_vartheta (mathbb Z/q mathbb Z)^2$, are these groups isomorphic?



      Thoughts:



      My intuition says: No, $G$ and $H$ are not isomorphic. But I am unsure how to prove this hypothesis. I tried to evaluate the centers $Z(G)$ and $Z(H)$ of $G$ and $H$, respectively, which gave me $Z(G) = {(0,0)} times mathbb Z/q mathbb Z$ and ${(0,r,r): r in mathbb Z/q mathbb Z} subseteq Z(H)$.



      Makes this line of attack sense? Or is the required argument quite obvious?



      Thank you very much for your insights!



      Context:



      I stumbled upon this question while reading a collection of problems about group theory which interested me as a layperson.







      group-theory finite-groups group-isomorphism semidirect-product






      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question











      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question










      asked Nov 17 at 20:10









      Moritz

      1,1511622




      1,1511622






















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes

















          up vote
          3
          down vote



          accepted










          I think that your groups are isomorphic. You can prove it in two ways. The first one is to show an explicit isomorphism, which is not hard to do, but kind of boring.
          The second way is to show that $H$ "has the same structure as $G$".



          Namely you have to find two commuting normal subgroups of H, whose intersection is trivial, one isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z} rtimes_varphi mathbb{Z}/qmathbb{Z}$ and the other isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/qmathbb{Z}$. It's not hard to find the former. As for the latter, you have already found it!






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • Thank you! If your are right, I was looking in the wrong direction. I will try to your argument in the following days. Until then +1 from me.
            – Moritz
            Nov 18 at 15:04











          Your Answer





          StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
          return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
          StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
          StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
          });
          });
          }, "mathjax-editing");

          StackExchange.ready(function() {
          var channelOptions = {
          tags: "".split(" "),
          id: "69"
          };
          initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

          StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
          // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
          if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
          StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
          createEditor();
          });
          }
          else {
          createEditor();
          }
          });

          function createEditor() {
          StackExchange.prepareEditor({
          heartbeatType: 'answer',
          convertImagesToLinks: true,
          noModals: true,
          showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
          reputationToPostImages: 10,
          bindNavPrevention: true,
          postfix: "",
          imageUploader: {
          brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
          contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
          allowUrls: true
          },
          noCode: true, onDemand: true,
          discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
          ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
          });


          }
          });














          draft saved

          draft discarded


















          StackExchange.ready(
          function () {
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3002755%2fmathbb-z-p-mathbb-z-rtimes-mathbb-z-q-mathbb-z-times-mathbb-z-q-mathb%23new-answer', 'question_page');
          }
          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown

























          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes








          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes








          up vote
          3
          down vote



          accepted










          I think that your groups are isomorphic. You can prove it in two ways. The first one is to show an explicit isomorphism, which is not hard to do, but kind of boring.
          The second way is to show that $H$ "has the same structure as $G$".



          Namely you have to find two commuting normal subgroups of H, whose intersection is trivial, one isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z} rtimes_varphi mathbb{Z}/qmathbb{Z}$ and the other isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/qmathbb{Z}$. It's not hard to find the former. As for the latter, you have already found it!






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • Thank you! If your are right, I was looking in the wrong direction. I will try to your argument in the following days. Until then +1 from me.
            – Moritz
            Nov 18 at 15:04















          up vote
          3
          down vote



          accepted










          I think that your groups are isomorphic. You can prove it in two ways. The first one is to show an explicit isomorphism, which is not hard to do, but kind of boring.
          The second way is to show that $H$ "has the same structure as $G$".



          Namely you have to find two commuting normal subgroups of H, whose intersection is trivial, one isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z} rtimes_varphi mathbb{Z}/qmathbb{Z}$ and the other isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/qmathbb{Z}$. It's not hard to find the former. As for the latter, you have already found it!






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • Thank you! If your are right, I was looking in the wrong direction. I will try to your argument in the following days. Until then +1 from me.
            – Moritz
            Nov 18 at 15:04













          up vote
          3
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          3
          down vote



          accepted






          I think that your groups are isomorphic. You can prove it in two ways. The first one is to show an explicit isomorphism, which is not hard to do, but kind of boring.
          The second way is to show that $H$ "has the same structure as $G$".



          Namely you have to find two commuting normal subgroups of H, whose intersection is trivial, one isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z} rtimes_varphi mathbb{Z}/qmathbb{Z}$ and the other isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/qmathbb{Z}$. It's not hard to find the former. As for the latter, you have already found it!






          share|cite|improve this answer












          I think that your groups are isomorphic. You can prove it in two ways. The first one is to show an explicit isomorphism, which is not hard to do, but kind of boring.
          The second way is to show that $H$ "has the same structure as $G$".



          Namely you have to find two commuting normal subgroups of H, whose intersection is trivial, one isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z} rtimes_varphi mathbb{Z}/qmathbb{Z}$ and the other isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/qmathbb{Z}$. It's not hard to find the former. As for the latter, you have already found it!







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Nov 17 at 21:30









          Pietro Gheri

          1362




          1362












          • Thank you! If your are right, I was looking in the wrong direction. I will try to your argument in the following days. Until then +1 from me.
            – Moritz
            Nov 18 at 15:04


















          • Thank you! If your are right, I was looking in the wrong direction. I will try to your argument in the following days. Until then +1 from me.
            – Moritz
            Nov 18 at 15:04
















          Thank you! If your are right, I was looking in the wrong direction. I will try to your argument in the following days. Until then +1 from me.
          – Moritz
          Nov 18 at 15:04




          Thank you! If your are right, I was looking in the wrong direction. I will try to your argument in the following days. Until then +1 from me.
          – Moritz
          Nov 18 at 15:04


















          draft saved

          draft discarded




















































          Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


          • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

          But avoid



          • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

          • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


          Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


          To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





          Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


          Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


          • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

          But avoid



          • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

          • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


          To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




          draft saved


          draft discarded














          StackExchange.ready(
          function () {
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3002755%2fmathbb-z-p-mathbb-z-rtimes-mathbb-z-q-mathbb-z-times-mathbb-z-q-mathb%23new-answer', 'question_page');
          }
          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown





















































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown

































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown







          Popular posts from this blog

          How do I know what Microsoft account the skydrive app is syncing to?

          When does type information flow backwards in C++?

          Grease: Live!