Do isomorphic groups share a binary operation? [closed]
$begingroup$
Suppose you have two isomorphic groups. Does the binary operation defined on each group need to be the same operation?
group-theory group-homomorphism binary-operations
$endgroup$
closed as off-topic by José Carlos Santos, Gibbs, Lord Shark the Unknown, Lee David Chung Lin, Joonas Ilmavirta Jan 31 at 7:11
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "This question is missing context or other details: Please provide additional context, which ideally explains why the question is relevant to you and our community. Some forms of context include: background and motivation, relevant definitions, source, possible strategies, your current progress, why the question is interesting or important, etc." – José Carlos Santos, Gibbs, Lee David Chung Lin
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Suppose you have two isomorphic groups. Does the binary operation defined on each group need to be the same operation?
group-theory group-homomorphism binary-operations
$endgroup$
closed as off-topic by José Carlos Santos, Gibbs, Lord Shark the Unknown, Lee David Chung Lin, Joonas Ilmavirta Jan 31 at 7:11
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "This question is missing context or other details: Please provide additional context, which ideally explains why the question is relevant to you and our community. Some forms of context include: background and motivation, relevant definitions, source, possible strategies, your current progress, why the question is interesting or important, etc." – José Carlos Santos, Gibbs, Lee David Chung Lin
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
1
$begingroup$
If you mean, does it have to be the same operation in both groups: no.
$endgroup$
– David
Jan 30 at 23:48
$begingroup$
Short answer" "no". Possibly helpful: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2039702/…
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Jan 31 at 2:35
$begingroup$
Not anymore than two isomorphic groups are equal
$endgroup$
– BallpointBen
Jan 31 at 5:50
$begingroup$
I guess if you think of it strictly in terms of functions then the two operations are defined on different domains so they wouldn't be the same. I was just thinking that if one group had addition (like defined with integers), then would an isomorphic group need to have the same rule. The inspiration for this post came from an assignment question I was doing, showing that any non-cyclic group of order 4 must be isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} times mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.
$endgroup$
– NickBlotted
Feb 1 at 0:19
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Suppose you have two isomorphic groups. Does the binary operation defined on each group need to be the same operation?
group-theory group-homomorphism binary-operations
$endgroup$
Suppose you have two isomorphic groups. Does the binary operation defined on each group need to be the same operation?
group-theory group-homomorphism binary-operations
group-theory group-homomorphism binary-operations
edited Feb 1 at 0:14
NickBlotted
asked Jan 30 at 23:45
NickBlottedNickBlotted
133
133
closed as off-topic by José Carlos Santos, Gibbs, Lord Shark the Unknown, Lee David Chung Lin, Joonas Ilmavirta Jan 31 at 7:11
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "This question is missing context or other details: Please provide additional context, which ideally explains why the question is relevant to you and our community. Some forms of context include: background and motivation, relevant definitions, source, possible strategies, your current progress, why the question is interesting or important, etc." – José Carlos Santos, Gibbs, Lee David Chung Lin
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
closed as off-topic by José Carlos Santos, Gibbs, Lord Shark the Unknown, Lee David Chung Lin, Joonas Ilmavirta Jan 31 at 7:11
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "This question is missing context or other details: Please provide additional context, which ideally explains why the question is relevant to you and our community. Some forms of context include: background and motivation, relevant definitions, source, possible strategies, your current progress, why the question is interesting or important, etc." – José Carlos Santos, Gibbs, Lee David Chung Lin
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
1
$begingroup$
If you mean, does it have to be the same operation in both groups: no.
$endgroup$
– David
Jan 30 at 23:48
$begingroup$
Short answer" "no". Possibly helpful: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2039702/…
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Jan 31 at 2:35
$begingroup$
Not anymore than two isomorphic groups are equal
$endgroup$
– BallpointBen
Jan 31 at 5:50
$begingroup$
I guess if you think of it strictly in terms of functions then the two operations are defined on different domains so they wouldn't be the same. I was just thinking that if one group had addition (like defined with integers), then would an isomorphic group need to have the same rule. The inspiration for this post came from an assignment question I was doing, showing that any non-cyclic group of order 4 must be isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} times mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.
$endgroup$
– NickBlotted
Feb 1 at 0:19
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
If you mean, does it have to be the same operation in both groups: no.
$endgroup$
– David
Jan 30 at 23:48
$begingroup$
Short answer" "no". Possibly helpful: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2039702/…
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Jan 31 at 2:35
$begingroup$
Not anymore than two isomorphic groups are equal
$endgroup$
– BallpointBen
Jan 31 at 5:50
$begingroup$
I guess if you think of it strictly in terms of functions then the two operations are defined on different domains so they wouldn't be the same. I was just thinking that if one group had addition (like defined with integers), then would an isomorphic group need to have the same rule. The inspiration for this post came from an assignment question I was doing, showing that any non-cyclic group of order 4 must be isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} times mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.
$endgroup$
– NickBlotted
Feb 1 at 0:19
1
1
$begingroup$
If you mean, does it have to be the same operation in both groups: no.
$endgroup$
– David
Jan 30 at 23:48
$begingroup$
If you mean, does it have to be the same operation in both groups: no.
$endgroup$
– David
Jan 30 at 23:48
$begingroup$
Short answer" "no". Possibly helpful: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2039702/…
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Jan 31 at 2:35
$begingroup$
Short answer" "no". Possibly helpful: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2039702/…
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Jan 31 at 2:35
$begingroup$
Not anymore than two isomorphic groups are equal
$endgroup$
– BallpointBen
Jan 31 at 5:50
$begingroup$
Not anymore than two isomorphic groups are equal
$endgroup$
– BallpointBen
Jan 31 at 5:50
$begingroup$
I guess if you think of it strictly in terms of functions then the two operations are defined on different domains so they wouldn't be the same. I was just thinking that if one group had addition (like defined with integers), then would an isomorphic group need to have the same rule. The inspiration for this post came from an assignment question I was doing, showing that any non-cyclic group of order 4 must be isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} times mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.
$endgroup$
– NickBlotted
Feb 1 at 0:19
$begingroup$
I guess if you think of it strictly in terms of functions then the two operations are defined on different domains so they wouldn't be the same. I was just thinking that if one group had addition (like defined with integers), then would an isomorphic group need to have the same rule. The inspiration for this post came from an assignment question I was doing, showing that any non-cyclic group of order 4 must be isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} times mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.
$endgroup$
– NickBlotted
Feb 1 at 0:19
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Not necessarily, no.
The two binary operations behave the same on the underlying sets with respect to the axioms of group theory, yeah, and that's by the fact that the two groups are isomorphic as groups, but it might so happen that, say, one binary operation is the restriction of some bigger relation whereas the other is not.
For example, $(Bbb Z_3, +_3)cong H$, where $H=(X, circ')$, for $X={operatorname{id}, sigma^2, sigma^4}$, is the subgroup of the group $({sigma^imid iinoverline{0,5}}, circ)$ of the rotational symmetries of this shape:
,
where $sigma$ is a clockwise rotation of $pi/3$ radians about the centre, so that $circ'=circrvert_{Xtimes X}$ is distinct from addition $+_3$ modulo $3$.
Note that here we have simply declared that $circ'$ is some restriction but $+_3$ is not (although it can be seen as such); also, $circ'$ is composition of functions, whereas $+_3$ is an arithmetical operation.
The underlying sets can be completely different too (as illustrated above). A bijection between sets is not necessarily an equality; think: permutations.
Image source.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Consider this:
$log: (mathbb R^+,times) to (mathbb R,+)$ is a group isomorphism.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$G_1 = {0}$ and $G_2 = {1}$ are groups (each with multiplication as the binary operation).
They are isomorphic, as you can show.
The binary operation of $G_1$ has as its domain ${(0,0)}$, while the binary operation of $G_2$ has as its domain ${(1,1)}$, so their binary operations are not equal.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To add yet another example to those above, note that if $mathcal{P}_n$ denotes the group of $n$-by-$n$ permutation matrices (binary operation is matrix multiplication) and $S_n$ denotes the symmetric group (binary operation is function-composition), then these groups are isomorphic via the isomorphism $sigma longmapsto P_sigma$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Not necessarily, no.
The two binary operations behave the same on the underlying sets with respect to the axioms of group theory, yeah, and that's by the fact that the two groups are isomorphic as groups, but it might so happen that, say, one binary operation is the restriction of some bigger relation whereas the other is not.
For example, $(Bbb Z_3, +_3)cong H$, where $H=(X, circ')$, for $X={operatorname{id}, sigma^2, sigma^4}$, is the subgroup of the group $({sigma^imid iinoverline{0,5}}, circ)$ of the rotational symmetries of this shape:
,
where $sigma$ is a clockwise rotation of $pi/3$ radians about the centre, so that $circ'=circrvert_{Xtimes X}$ is distinct from addition $+_3$ modulo $3$.
Note that here we have simply declared that $circ'$ is some restriction but $+_3$ is not (although it can be seen as such); also, $circ'$ is composition of functions, whereas $+_3$ is an arithmetical operation.
The underlying sets can be completely different too (as illustrated above). A bijection between sets is not necessarily an equality; think: permutations.
Image source.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Not necessarily, no.
The two binary operations behave the same on the underlying sets with respect to the axioms of group theory, yeah, and that's by the fact that the two groups are isomorphic as groups, but it might so happen that, say, one binary operation is the restriction of some bigger relation whereas the other is not.
For example, $(Bbb Z_3, +_3)cong H$, where $H=(X, circ')$, for $X={operatorname{id}, sigma^2, sigma^4}$, is the subgroup of the group $({sigma^imid iinoverline{0,5}}, circ)$ of the rotational symmetries of this shape:
,
where $sigma$ is a clockwise rotation of $pi/3$ radians about the centre, so that $circ'=circrvert_{Xtimes X}$ is distinct from addition $+_3$ modulo $3$.
Note that here we have simply declared that $circ'$ is some restriction but $+_3$ is not (although it can be seen as such); also, $circ'$ is composition of functions, whereas $+_3$ is an arithmetical operation.
The underlying sets can be completely different too (as illustrated above). A bijection between sets is not necessarily an equality; think: permutations.
Image source.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Not necessarily, no.
The two binary operations behave the same on the underlying sets with respect to the axioms of group theory, yeah, and that's by the fact that the two groups are isomorphic as groups, but it might so happen that, say, one binary operation is the restriction of some bigger relation whereas the other is not.
For example, $(Bbb Z_3, +_3)cong H$, where $H=(X, circ')$, for $X={operatorname{id}, sigma^2, sigma^4}$, is the subgroup of the group $({sigma^imid iinoverline{0,5}}, circ)$ of the rotational symmetries of this shape:
,
where $sigma$ is a clockwise rotation of $pi/3$ radians about the centre, so that $circ'=circrvert_{Xtimes X}$ is distinct from addition $+_3$ modulo $3$.
Note that here we have simply declared that $circ'$ is some restriction but $+_3$ is not (although it can be seen as such); also, $circ'$ is composition of functions, whereas $+_3$ is an arithmetical operation.
The underlying sets can be completely different too (as illustrated above). A bijection between sets is not necessarily an equality; think: permutations.
Image source.
$endgroup$
Not necessarily, no.
The two binary operations behave the same on the underlying sets with respect to the axioms of group theory, yeah, and that's by the fact that the two groups are isomorphic as groups, but it might so happen that, say, one binary operation is the restriction of some bigger relation whereas the other is not.
For example, $(Bbb Z_3, +_3)cong H$, where $H=(X, circ')$, for $X={operatorname{id}, sigma^2, sigma^4}$, is the subgroup of the group $({sigma^imid iinoverline{0,5}}, circ)$ of the rotational symmetries of this shape:
,
where $sigma$ is a clockwise rotation of $pi/3$ radians about the centre, so that $circ'=circrvert_{Xtimes X}$ is distinct from addition $+_3$ modulo $3$.
Note that here we have simply declared that $circ'$ is some restriction but $+_3$ is not (although it can be seen as such); also, $circ'$ is composition of functions, whereas $+_3$ is an arithmetical operation.
The underlying sets can be completely different too (as illustrated above). A bijection between sets is not necessarily an equality; think: permutations.
Image source.
edited Feb 1 at 12:41
answered Jan 30 at 23:52
ShaunShaun
9,294113684
9,294113684
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Consider this:
$log: (mathbb R^+,times) to (mathbb R,+)$ is a group isomorphism.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Consider this:
$log: (mathbb R^+,times) to (mathbb R,+)$ is a group isomorphism.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Consider this:
$log: (mathbb R^+,times) to (mathbb R,+)$ is a group isomorphism.
$endgroup$
Consider this:
$log: (mathbb R^+,times) to (mathbb R,+)$ is a group isomorphism.
answered Jan 31 at 0:07
lhflhf
165k10171396
165k10171396
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$G_1 = {0}$ and $G_2 = {1}$ are groups (each with multiplication as the binary operation).
They are isomorphic, as you can show.
The binary operation of $G_1$ has as its domain ${(0,0)}$, while the binary operation of $G_2$ has as its domain ${(1,1)}$, so their binary operations are not equal.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$G_1 = {0}$ and $G_2 = {1}$ are groups (each with multiplication as the binary operation).
They are isomorphic, as you can show.
The binary operation of $G_1$ has as its domain ${(0,0)}$, while the binary operation of $G_2$ has as its domain ${(1,1)}$, so their binary operations are not equal.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$G_1 = {0}$ and $G_2 = {1}$ are groups (each with multiplication as the binary operation).
They are isomorphic, as you can show.
The binary operation of $G_1$ has as its domain ${(0,0)}$, while the binary operation of $G_2$ has as its domain ${(1,1)}$, so their binary operations are not equal.
$endgroup$
$G_1 = {0}$ and $G_2 = {1}$ are groups (each with multiplication as the binary operation).
They are isomorphic, as you can show.
The binary operation of $G_1$ has as its domain ${(0,0)}$, while the binary operation of $G_2$ has as its domain ${(1,1)}$, so their binary operations are not equal.
answered Jan 30 at 23:54
MetricMetric
1,23649
1,23649
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To add yet another example to those above, note that if $mathcal{P}_n$ denotes the group of $n$-by-$n$ permutation matrices (binary operation is matrix multiplication) and $S_n$ denotes the symmetric group (binary operation is function-composition), then these groups are isomorphic via the isomorphism $sigma longmapsto P_sigma$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To add yet another example to those above, note that if $mathcal{P}_n$ denotes the group of $n$-by-$n$ permutation matrices (binary operation is matrix multiplication) and $S_n$ denotes the symmetric group (binary operation is function-composition), then these groups are isomorphic via the isomorphism $sigma longmapsto P_sigma$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To add yet another example to those above, note that if $mathcal{P}_n$ denotes the group of $n$-by-$n$ permutation matrices (binary operation is matrix multiplication) and $S_n$ denotes the symmetric group (binary operation is function-composition), then these groups are isomorphic via the isomorphism $sigma longmapsto P_sigma$.
$endgroup$
To add yet another example to those above, note that if $mathcal{P}_n$ denotes the group of $n$-by-$n$ permutation matrices (binary operation is matrix multiplication) and $S_n$ denotes the symmetric group (binary operation is function-composition), then these groups are isomorphic via the isomorphism $sigma longmapsto P_sigma$.
edited Jan 31 at 2:35
answered Jan 31 at 2:28
Pietro PaparellaPietro Paparella
1,454615
1,454615
add a comment |
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
If you mean, does it have to be the same operation in both groups: no.
$endgroup$
– David
Jan 30 at 23:48
$begingroup$
Short answer" "no". Possibly helpful: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2039702/…
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Jan 31 at 2:35
$begingroup$
Not anymore than two isomorphic groups are equal
$endgroup$
– BallpointBen
Jan 31 at 5:50
$begingroup$
I guess if you think of it strictly in terms of functions then the two operations are defined on different domains so they wouldn't be the same. I was just thinking that if one group had addition (like defined with integers), then would an isomorphic group need to have the same rule. The inspiration for this post came from an assignment question I was doing, showing that any non-cyclic group of order 4 must be isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z} times mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$.
$endgroup$
– NickBlotted
Feb 1 at 0:19