Can't ping computers on local network over wifi on Windows, but can with Mac
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I've got two routers connected via ethernet on two different floors of my house, both with the same SSID, and identical security settings.
When connecting via ethernet to either router, all computers can see each other. E.g. basement-1 can ping secondfloor-1, and vice-versa.
When connecting via wi-fi, my Windows 10 machine, which is connected to the router on the second floor, cannot see any machines in the basement. This problem does not exist for other devices (e.g. OS X, iPad, or Android tablets).
Some additonal informaiton based on questions so far:
- To test, I renamed the router on the second floor to a new SSID. This ensured I was not actually connected to the basement router
- Network setup is as follows:
- Basement Router: 192.168.13.2 (stock D-Link)
- Second Floor Router: 192.168.13.8 (DDWRT)
- Windows 10 machine: 192.168.13.116 (I have tried both static and DHCP IP - no difference)
- NAS connected to basement router: 192.168.13.150
- Printer connected to basement router: 192.168.13.50
- Computer connected to basement router: 192.168.13.100
- ROKU connected to second floor router via Ethernet: 192.168.13.106
- Ping tests:
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement router via wi-fi: Fail
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement computer/printer/NAS via wi-fi: Fail
- Win 10 on second floor router ping google.com via wi-fi: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement router via ethernet: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement computer/printer/NAS via ethernet: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping ROKU via wi-fi: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping google.com via ethernet: Success
- iPad on second floor router ping basement computer: Success
- iPad on second floor router ping basement router: Success
- Computer on basement router ping Win 10 machine on second floor router via wifi: Fail
In a nutshell, it looks like the Windows 10 machine specifically cannot see anything connected to the basement router, but it can see the internet. It can also see devices connected to the second floor router (e.g. ROKU). Second floor items can also see basement items (iPad works okay via wifi; ROKU works via ethernet - both can access the NAS in the basement).
Output of route -4 print
:
===========================================================================
Interface List
5...54 e1 ad 71 de a7 ......Intel(R) Ethernet Connection (4) I219-V
10...ae ed 5c b9 c0 67 ......Microsoft Wi-Fi Direct Virtual Adapter
17...ac ed 5c b9 c0 68 ......Microsoft Wi-Fi Direct Virtual Adapter #2
15...00 ff b0 04 2e e0 ......TAP-Windows Adapter V9
8...ac ed 5c b9 c0 67 ......Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless-AC 8265
9...ac ed 5c b9 c0 6b ......Bluetooth Device (Personal Area Network)
1...........................Software Loopback Interface 1
===========================================================================
IPv4 Route Table
===========================================================================
Active Routes:
Network Destination Netmask Gateway Interface Metric
0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 192.168.13.1 192.168.13.116 50
127.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
127.0.0.1 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
127.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
192.168.13.0 255.255.255.0 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
192.168.13.116 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
192.168.13.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
===========================================================================
Persistent Routes:
None
Any suggestions on what may be happening? I'm confident the router setups are okay because everything seems to work fine with other platforms; the problem seems to be specific to the Windows 10 machine on wifi.
Thanks.
UPDATE
It looks like there is something materially wrong with both routers in my house; the issues above seem to resolve if I do a full power-down (i.e. unplug), pause 1 minute, and then re-power everything, starting with the basement router, then the second floor router, and then re-enabling WiFi on all devices. Both routers are older models; as a next step I may try installing DD-WRT on the basement router and seeing if that fixes anything.
windows wireless-networking router
|
show 8 more comments
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
I've got two routers connected via ethernet on two different floors of my house, both with the same SSID, and identical security settings.
When connecting via ethernet to either router, all computers can see each other. E.g. basement-1 can ping secondfloor-1, and vice-versa.
When connecting via wi-fi, my Windows 10 machine, which is connected to the router on the second floor, cannot see any machines in the basement. This problem does not exist for other devices (e.g. OS X, iPad, or Android tablets).
Some additonal informaiton based on questions so far:
- To test, I renamed the router on the second floor to a new SSID. This ensured I was not actually connected to the basement router
- Network setup is as follows:
- Basement Router: 192.168.13.2 (stock D-Link)
- Second Floor Router: 192.168.13.8 (DDWRT)
- Windows 10 machine: 192.168.13.116 (I have tried both static and DHCP IP - no difference)
- NAS connected to basement router: 192.168.13.150
- Printer connected to basement router: 192.168.13.50
- Computer connected to basement router: 192.168.13.100
- ROKU connected to second floor router via Ethernet: 192.168.13.106
- Ping tests:
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement router via wi-fi: Fail
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement computer/printer/NAS via wi-fi: Fail
- Win 10 on second floor router ping google.com via wi-fi: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement router via ethernet: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement computer/printer/NAS via ethernet: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping ROKU via wi-fi: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping google.com via ethernet: Success
- iPad on second floor router ping basement computer: Success
- iPad on second floor router ping basement router: Success
- Computer on basement router ping Win 10 machine on second floor router via wifi: Fail
In a nutshell, it looks like the Windows 10 machine specifically cannot see anything connected to the basement router, but it can see the internet. It can also see devices connected to the second floor router (e.g. ROKU). Second floor items can also see basement items (iPad works okay via wifi; ROKU works via ethernet - both can access the NAS in the basement).
Output of route -4 print
:
===========================================================================
Interface List
5...54 e1 ad 71 de a7 ......Intel(R) Ethernet Connection (4) I219-V
10...ae ed 5c b9 c0 67 ......Microsoft Wi-Fi Direct Virtual Adapter
17...ac ed 5c b9 c0 68 ......Microsoft Wi-Fi Direct Virtual Adapter #2
15...00 ff b0 04 2e e0 ......TAP-Windows Adapter V9
8...ac ed 5c b9 c0 67 ......Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless-AC 8265
9...ac ed 5c b9 c0 6b ......Bluetooth Device (Personal Area Network)
1...........................Software Loopback Interface 1
===========================================================================
IPv4 Route Table
===========================================================================
Active Routes:
Network Destination Netmask Gateway Interface Metric
0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 192.168.13.1 192.168.13.116 50
127.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
127.0.0.1 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
127.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
192.168.13.0 255.255.255.0 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
192.168.13.116 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
192.168.13.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
===========================================================================
Persistent Routes:
None
Any suggestions on what may be happening? I'm confident the router setups are okay because everything seems to work fine with other platforms; the problem seems to be specific to the Windows 10 machine on wifi.
Thanks.
UPDATE
It looks like there is something materially wrong with both routers in my house; the issues above seem to resolve if I do a full power-down (i.e. unplug), pause 1 minute, and then re-power everything, starting with the basement router, then the second floor router, and then re-enabling WiFi on all devices. Both routers are older models; as a next step I may try installing DD-WRT on the basement router and seeing if that fixes anything.
windows wireless-networking router
It may be your firewall. Try disabling it and ping again.
– Sergio Dominguez
Jul 22 at 4:16
Thanks; thought of that, no firewall enabled. Even if it was: wouldn't the firewall have prevented ethernet pings from working?
– tendim
Jul 22 at 4:18
Firewall on the router is meant more so for the the internet.In this intranet the local pc's anti-virus and firewall would prevent the pings from working. Disable firewall on the local pc.
– Sergio Dominguez
Jul 22 at 4:22
Thanks. No firewall enabled, period. On router or PC. No anti-virus installed either.
– tendim
Jul 22 at 4:25
1
After you pinged something in the basement what is the output of "arp -a"? This must be something on the DD-WRT.
– bcs78
Jul 22 at 17:07
|
show 8 more comments
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
I've got two routers connected via ethernet on two different floors of my house, both with the same SSID, and identical security settings.
When connecting via ethernet to either router, all computers can see each other. E.g. basement-1 can ping secondfloor-1, and vice-versa.
When connecting via wi-fi, my Windows 10 machine, which is connected to the router on the second floor, cannot see any machines in the basement. This problem does not exist for other devices (e.g. OS X, iPad, or Android tablets).
Some additonal informaiton based on questions so far:
- To test, I renamed the router on the second floor to a new SSID. This ensured I was not actually connected to the basement router
- Network setup is as follows:
- Basement Router: 192.168.13.2 (stock D-Link)
- Second Floor Router: 192.168.13.8 (DDWRT)
- Windows 10 machine: 192.168.13.116 (I have tried both static and DHCP IP - no difference)
- NAS connected to basement router: 192.168.13.150
- Printer connected to basement router: 192.168.13.50
- Computer connected to basement router: 192.168.13.100
- ROKU connected to second floor router via Ethernet: 192.168.13.106
- Ping tests:
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement router via wi-fi: Fail
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement computer/printer/NAS via wi-fi: Fail
- Win 10 on second floor router ping google.com via wi-fi: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement router via ethernet: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement computer/printer/NAS via ethernet: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping ROKU via wi-fi: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping google.com via ethernet: Success
- iPad on second floor router ping basement computer: Success
- iPad on second floor router ping basement router: Success
- Computer on basement router ping Win 10 machine on second floor router via wifi: Fail
In a nutshell, it looks like the Windows 10 machine specifically cannot see anything connected to the basement router, but it can see the internet. It can also see devices connected to the second floor router (e.g. ROKU). Second floor items can also see basement items (iPad works okay via wifi; ROKU works via ethernet - both can access the NAS in the basement).
Output of route -4 print
:
===========================================================================
Interface List
5...54 e1 ad 71 de a7 ......Intel(R) Ethernet Connection (4) I219-V
10...ae ed 5c b9 c0 67 ......Microsoft Wi-Fi Direct Virtual Adapter
17...ac ed 5c b9 c0 68 ......Microsoft Wi-Fi Direct Virtual Adapter #2
15...00 ff b0 04 2e e0 ......TAP-Windows Adapter V9
8...ac ed 5c b9 c0 67 ......Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless-AC 8265
9...ac ed 5c b9 c0 6b ......Bluetooth Device (Personal Area Network)
1...........................Software Loopback Interface 1
===========================================================================
IPv4 Route Table
===========================================================================
Active Routes:
Network Destination Netmask Gateway Interface Metric
0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 192.168.13.1 192.168.13.116 50
127.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
127.0.0.1 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
127.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
192.168.13.0 255.255.255.0 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
192.168.13.116 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
192.168.13.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
===========================================================================
Persistent Routes:
None
Any suggestions on what may be happening? I'm confident the router setups are okay because everything seems to work fine with other platforms; the problem seems to be specific to the Windows 10 machine on wifi.
Thanks.
UPDATE
It looks like there is something materially wrong with both routers in my house; the issues above seem to resolve if I do a full power-down (i.e. unplug), pause 1 minute, and then re-power everything, starting with the basement router, then the second floor router, and then re-enabling WiFi on all devices. Both routers are older models; as a next step I may try installing DD-WRT on the basement router and seeing if that fixes anything.
windows wireless-networking router
I've got two routers connected via ethernet on two different floors of my house, both with the same SSID, and identical security settings.
When connecting via ethernet to either router, all computers can see each other. E.g. basement-1 can ping secondfloor-1, and vice-versa.
When connecting via wi-fi, my Windows 10 machine, which is connected to the router on the second floor, cannot see any machines in the basement. This problem does not exist for other devices (e.g. OS X, iPad, or Android tablets).
Some additonal informaiton based on questions so far:
- To test, I renamed the router on the second floor to a new SSID. This ensured I was not actually connected to the basement router
- Network setup is as follows:
- Basement Router: 192.168.13.2 (stock D-Link)
- Second Floor Router: 192.168.13.8 (DDWRT)
- Windows 10 machine: 192.168.13.116 (I have tried both static and DHCP IP - no difference)
- NAS connected to basement router: 192.168.13.150
- Printer connected to basement router: 192.168.13.50
- Computer connected to basement router: 192.168.13.100
- ROKU connected to second floor router via Ethernet: 192.168.13.106
- Ping tests:
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement router via wi-fi: Fail
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement computer/printer/NAS via wi-fi: Fail
- Win 10 on second floor router ping google.com via wi-fi: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement router via ethernet: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping basement computer/printer/NAS via ethernet: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping ROKU via wi-fi: Success
- Win 10 on second floor router ping google.com via ethernet: Success
- iPad on second floor router ping basement computer: Success
- iPad on second floor router ping basement router: Success
- Computer on basement router ping Win 10 machine on second floor router via wifi: Fail
In a nutshell, it looks like the Windows 10 machine specifically cannot see anything connected to the basement router, but it can see the internet. It can also see devices connected to the second floor router (e.g. ROKU). Second floor items can also see basement items (iPad works okay via wifi; ROKU works via ethernet - both can access the NAS in the basement).
Output of route -4 print
:
===========================================================================
Interface List
5...54 e1 ad 71 de a7 ......Intel(R) Ethernet Connection (4) I219-V
10...ae ed 5c b9 c0 67 ......Microsoft Wi-Fi Direct Virtual Adapter
17...ac ed 5c b9 c0 68 ......Microsoft Wi-Fi Direct Virtual Adapter #2
15...00 ff b0 04 2e e0 ......TAP-Windows Adapter V9
8...ac ed 5c b9 c0 67 ......Intel(R) Dual Band Wireless-AC 8265
9...ac ed 5c b9 c0 6b ......Bluetooth Device (Personal Area Network)
1...........................Software Loopback Interface 1
===========================================================================
IPv4 Route Table
===========================================================================
Active Routes:
Network Destination Netmask Gateway Interface Metric
0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 192.168.13.1 192.168.13.116 50
127.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
127.0.0.1 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
127.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
192.168.13.0 255.255.255.0 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
192.168.13.116 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
192.168.13.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 331
255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.13.116 306
===========================================================================
Persistent Routes:
None
Any suggestions on what may be happening? I'm confident the router setups are okay because everything seems to work fine with other platforms; the problem seems to be specific to the Windows 10 machine on wifi.
Thanks.
UPDATE
It looks like there is something materially wrong with both routers in my house; the issues above seem to resolve if I do a full power-down (i.e. unplug), pause 1 minute, and then re-power everything, starting with the basement router, then the second floor router, and then re-enabling WiFi on all devices. Both routers are older models; as a next step I may try installing DD-WRT on the basement router and seeing if that fixes anything.
windows wireless-networking router
windows wireless-networking router
edited Dec 5 at 16:39
asked Jul 22 at 3:43
tendim
1012
1012
It may be your firewall. Try disabling it and ping again.
– Sergio Dominguez
Jul 22 at 4:16
Thanks; thought of that, no firewall enabled. Even if it was: wouldn't the firewall have prevented ethernet pings from working?
– tendim
Jul 22 at 4:18
Firewall on the router is meant more so for the the internet.In this intranet the local pc's anti-virus and firewall would prevent the pings from working. Disable firewall on the local pc.
– Sergio Dominguez
Jul 22 at 4:22
Thanks. No firewall enabled, period. On router or PC. No anti-virus installed either.
– tendim
Jul 22 at 4:25
1
After you pinged something in the basement what is the output of "arp -a"? This must be something on the DD-WRT.
– bcs78
Jul 22 at 17:07
|
show 8 more comments
It may be your firewall. Try disabling it and ping again.
– Sergio Dominguez
Jul 22 at 4:16
Thanks; thought of that, no firewall enabled. Even if it was: wouldn't the firewall have prevented ethernet pings from working?
– tendim
Jul 22 at 4:18
Firewall on the router is meant more so for the the internet.In this intranet the local pc's anti-virus and firewall would prevent the pings from working. Disable firewall on the local pc.
– Sergio Dominguez
Jul 22 at 4:22
Thanks. No firewall enabled, period. On router or PC. No anti-virus installed either.
– tendim
Jul 22 at 4:25
1
After you pinged something in the basement what is the output of "arp -a"? This must be something on the DD-WRT.
– bcs78
Jul 22 at 17:07
It may be your firewall. Try disabling it and ping again.
– Sergio Dominguez
Jul 22 at 4:16
It may be your firewall. Try disabling it and ping again.
– Sergio Dominguez
Jul 22 at 4:16
Thanks; thought of that, no firewall enabled. Even if it was: wouldn't the firewall have prevented ethernet pings from working?
– tendim
Jul 22 at 4:18
Thanks; thought of that, no firewall enabled. Even if it was: wouldn't the firewall have prevented ethernet pings from working?
– tendim
Jul 22 at 4:18
Firewall on the router is meant more so for the the internet.In this intranet the local pc's anti-virus and firewall would prevent the pings from working. Disable firewall on the local pc.
– Sergio Dominguez
Jul 22 at 4:22
Firewall on the router is meant more so for the the internet.In this intranet the local pc's anti-virus and firewall would prevent the pings from working. Disable firewall on the local pc.
– Sergio Dominguez
Jul 22 at 4:22
Thanks. No firewall enabled, period. On router or PC. No anti-virus installed either.
– tendim
Jul 22 at 4:25
Thanks. No firewall enabled, period. On router or PC. No anti-virus installed either.
– tendim
Jul 22 at 4:25
1
1
After you pinged something in the basement what is the output of "arp -a"? This must be something on the DD-WRT.
– bcs78
Jul 22 at 17:07
After you pinged something in the basement what is the output of "arp -a"? This must be something on the DD-WRT.
– bcs78
Jul 22 at 17:07
|
show 8 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
up vote
0
down vote
I suspect your Win 10 box's WNIC is losing its ability to receive multicasts (including broadcasts), which breaks ARP, which keeps it from being able to address packets to devices that aren't in its ARP cache.
As a simple test of this hypothesis, add a static ARP mapping, in the Win 10 box, for one of the boxes it can't ping. If that allows it to ping that box, you know ARP was broken somehow.
Many WNICs are buggy when it comes to dealing with a separate cipher for multicasts/broadcasts than for unicasts, which is the case when original WPA (TKIP) is left enabled alongside WPA2 (AES-CCMP). So if you've left original WPA enabled on either of your routers, be sure to disable it so you're in pure WPA2-(AES-CCMP)-only mode.
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1 Answer
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1 Answer
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active
oldest
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active
oldest
votes
up vote
0
down vote
I suspect your Win 10 box's WNIC is losing its ability to receive multicasts (including broadcasts), which breaks ARP, which keeps it from being able to address packets to devices that aren't in its ARP cache.
As a simple test of this hypothesis, add a static ARP mapping, in the Win 10 box, for one of the boxes it can't ping. If that allows it to ping that box, you know ARP was broken somehow.
Many WNICs are buggy when it comes to dealing with a separate cipher for multicasts/broadcasts than for unicasts, which is the case when original WPA (TKIP) is left enabled alongside WPA2 (AES-CCMP). So if you've left original WPA enabled on either of your routers, be sure to disable it so you're in pure WPA2-(AES-CCMP)-only mode.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I suspect your Win 10 box's WNIC is losing its ability to receive multicasts (including broadcasts), which breaks ARP, which keeps it from being able to address packets to devices that aren't in its ARP cache.
As a simple test of this hypothesis, add a static ARP mapping, in the Win 10 box, for one of the boxes it can't ping. If that allows it to ping that box, you know ARP was broken somehow.
Many WNICs are buggy when it comes to dealing with a separate cipher for multicasts/broadcasts than for unicasts, which is the case when original WPA (TKIP) is left enabled alongside WPA2 (AES-CCMP). So if you've left original WPA enabled on either of your routers, be sure to disable it so you're in pure WPA2-(AES-CCMP)-only mode.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
I suspect your Win 10 box's WNIC is losing its ability to receive multicasts (including broadcasts), which breaks ARP, which keeps it from being able to address packets to devices that aren't in its ARP cache.
As a simple test of this hypothesis, add a static ARP mapping, in the Win 10 box, for one of the boxes it can't ping. If that allows it to ping that box, you know ARP was broken somehow.
Many WNICs are buggy when it comes to dealing with a separate cipher for multicasts/broadcasts than for unicasts, which is the case when original WPA (TKIP) is left enabled alongside WPA2 (AES-CCMP). So if you've left original WPA enabled on either of your routers, be sure to disable it so you're in pure WPA2-(AES-CCMP)-only mode.
I suspect your Win 10 box's WNIC is losing its ability to receive multicasts (including broadcasts), which breaks ARP, which keeps it from being able to address packets to devices that aren't in its ARP cache.
As a simple test of this hypothesis, add a static ARP mapping, in the Win 10 box, for one of the boxes it can't ping. If that allows it to ping that box, you know ARP was broken somehow.
Many WNICs are buggy when it comes to dealing with a separate cipher for multicasts/broadcasts than for unicasts, which is the case when original WPA (TKIP) is left enabled alongside WPA2 (AES-CCMP). So if you've left original WPA enabled on either of your routers, be sure to disable it so you're in pure WPA2-(AES-CCMP)-only mode.
answered Dec 5 at 16:57
Spiff
76.4k10116160
76.4k10116160
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It may be your firewall. Try disabling it and ping again.
– Sergio Dominguez
Jul 22 at 4:16
Thanks; thought of that, no firewall enabled. Even if it was: wouldn't the firewall have prevented ethernet pings from working?
– tendim
Jul 22 at 4:18
Firewall on the router is meant more so for the the internet.In this intranet the local pc's anti-virus and firewall would prevent the pings from working. Disable firewall on the local pc.
– Sergio Dominguez
Jul 22 at 4:22
Thanks. No firewall enabled, period. On router or PC. No anti-virus installed either.
– tendim
Jul 22 at 4:25
1
After you pinged something in the basement what is the output of "arp -a"? This must be something on the DD-WRT.
– bcs78
Jul 22 at 17:07