Probability of sum of N dice being above certain value X












1














In Dnd, sometimes you have to roll n, m-sided dice (say 5, d20s) and have the sum be greater than or equal to a certain value, x (say 90).



This is easy for me to calculate by brute force, for most typical examples. I simply take the total number of possibilities that meet the criteria, and divide by the total number of possibilities, by running through each combination of dice rolls. My result for the above example is 3003 dice combinations that sum to > 90, out of 3200000 combinations in total p = 0.009384375 chance of getting 90 or over.



Is there a way (e.g. an equation) to reach this value directly?










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    1














    In Dnd, sometimes you have to roll n, m-sided dice (say 5, d20s) and have the sum be greater than or equal to a certain value, x (say 90).



    This is easy for me to calculate by brute force, for most typical examples. I simply take the total number of possibilities that meet the criteria, and divide by the total number of possibilities, by running through each combination of dice rolls. My result for the above example is 3003 dice combinations that sum to > 90, out of 3200000 combinations in total p = 0.009384375 chance of getting 90 or over.



    Is there a way (e.g. an equation) to reach this value directly?










    share|cite|improve this question



























      1












      1








      1







      In Dnd, sometimes you have to roll n, m-sided dice (say 5, d20s) and have the sum be greater than or equal to a certain value, x (say 90).



      This is easy for me to calculate by brute force, for most typical examples. I simply take the total number of possibilities that meet the criteria, and divide by the total number of possibilities, by running through each combination of dice rolls. My result for the above example is 3003 dice combinations that sum to > 90, out of 3200000 combinations in total p = 0.009384375 chance of getting 90 or over.



      Is there a way (e.g. an equation) to reach this value directly?










      share|cite|improve this question















      In Dnd, sometimes you have to roll n, m-sided dice (say 5, d20s) and have the sum be greater than or equal to a certain value, x (say 90).



      This is easy for me to calculate by brute force, for most typical examples. I simply take the total number of possibilities that meet the criteria, and divide by the total number of possibilities, by running through each combination of dice rolls. My result for the above example is 3003 dice combinations that sum to > 90, out of 3200000 combinations in total p = 0.009384375 chance of getting 90 or over.



      Is there a way (e.g. an equation) to reach this value directly?







      probability dice






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      share|cite|improve this question













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      edited Nov 29 '18 at 11:54









      GNUSupporter 8964民主女神 地下教會

      12.8k72445




      12.8k72445










      asked Nov 29 '18 at 11:40









      james_alvarez

      1266




      1266






















          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          2














          Concerning a "closed" ( = finite summation) formula, start from
          $$
          eqalign{
          & N_b (s - n,m - 1,n) = {rm No}{rm .},{rm of},{rm solutions},{rm to};left{ matrix{
          {rm 1} le {rm integer};x_{,j} le m hfill cr
          x_{,1} + x_{,2} + ; cdots ; + x_{,n} = s hfill cr} right. = cr
          & = {rm No}{rm .},{rm of},{rm solutions},{rm to};left{ matrix{
          0 le {rm integer};y_{,j} le m - 1 hfill cr
          y_{,1} + y_{,2} + ; cdots ; + y_{,n} = s - n hfill cr} right. cr}
          $$

          where $N_b$ is given by
          $$
          N_b (s,r,m)quad left| {;0 leqslant text{integers }s,m,r} right.quad =
          sumlimits_{left( {0, leqslant } right),,k,,left( { leqslant ,frac{s}{r+1}, leqslant ,m} right)}
          {left( { - 1} right)^k binom{m}{k}
          binom
          { s + m - 1 - kleft( {r + 1} right) }
          { s - kleft( {r + 1} right)} }
          $$

          as explained in this related post.



          Then the number of ways to obtain a sum $x le s$ is given by
          $$
          eqalign{
          & M(x,m,n) = sumlimits_{x, le ,s,left( { le ,m,n} right),} {N_b (s - n,m - 1,n)} = cr
          & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - 1,} {N_b (s - n,m - 1,n)} = cr
          & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - n - 1,} {N_b (s,m - 1,n)} = cr
          & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - n - 1,} {sumlimits_{left( {0, le } right),,k,,left( { le ,{s over m}, le ,n} right)}
          {left( { - 1} right)^k left( matrix{ n hfill cr
          k hfill cr} right)left( matrix{
          s + n - 1 - k,m cr
          s - k,m cr} right)} } = cr
          & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{left( {0, le } right),,k,,left( { le ,{s over m}, le ,n} right)} {left( { - 1} right)^k left( matrix{
          n hfill cr
          k hfill cr} right)left( matrix{
          x - 1 - k,m cr
          x - n - 1 - k,m cr} right)} cr}
          $$



          and in fact $M(90,20,5)=3003$.



          Note that, as explained in the cited related post, the problem has the geometric equivalent of finding:
          the number of integral points on the diagonal plane $y_1, cdots, y_n=s-n$, intercepted by a $n$-D cube
          with side $[0,m-1]$
          .

          The formula for $N_b$ corresponds to calculating the points on the whole plane ($k=0$) and subtracting those
          pertaining to the surrounding cubes.

          The geometric analogy clearly shows that $N_b(nm-s,m,n)=N_b(s,m,n)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer































            2














            You could try to solve this using the Chebychev inequality. This should at least give you an estimate.






            share|cite|improve this answer





















            • nice idea (+1), but same comment as to the answer above.
              – G Cab
              Nov 30 '18 at 15:40



















            2














            G Cab gave a good closed-form answer, and it may well be what you're looking for.



            Another approach that works decently well -- particularly if the number of dice is large at all, or if you're looking for events that are closer to the mean results -- is to use a Central Limit Theorem approximation. Here's how that would play out for your example in the problem text:



            First: we're going to use something continuous to approximate something discrete, so let's do it carefully. If $S$ is the sum, we want to know about $mathbb P(S > 90) = mathbb P (S geq 91)$, so we'll split the difference and consider $S = 90.5$. (This is the so-called "continuity correction.")



            Asking whether the sum of five dice will be at least $90.5$ is equivalent to asking whether the average of five dice will exceed $90.5/5 = 18.1$. For one single die, the expected die roll is $10.5$ and the standard deviation of the die roll is $sqrt{133}/2$. If you average $n$ of these (independent) rolls together, the average will be an approximately normal random variable with mean $10.5$ and standard deviation $sqrt{133}/(2 sqrt n)$; in the case of $n = 5$, this is roughly $2.579$. The question then becomes: "How often does a normal random variable with those properties exceed $18.1$?" Use your favorite calculator, or a $Z$-score technique and a table of known values about the standard normal distribution, to get an answer of about $0.0016$.



            Then, stop and appreciate the fact that our answer wasn't that great! It was off by a factor of almost 10. So, what happened? Well, two things: (1) the approximation would have worked better if we were using more dice, and (2) the approximation would have worked better if we were considering numbers closer to the expected average of $10.5$. For instance, let's redo the problem with asking about the sum of five dice being larger than $60$ (again, we'll use $60.5$): it can be shown (click the "at least" button on the link) that the true probability is about $0.2730$, and repeating the above procedure gives an answer of $0.2804$ as our approximation.



            So, why is this worth doing? For five dice, maybe it's not. But for more dice, this gives a really efficient way of getting a good approximation (that, again, gets better and better the more dice you use) that can save you from some truly obnoxious combinatorics and enormous numbers. As another example of the value of this tactic: the true probability that the sum of $10$ dice exceeds $100$ is $0.5961$, and the aforementioned tactic gives an estimate of $0.5975$. This approach scales really well with the number of dice in a way that doing actual counting does not.






            share|cite|improve this answer

















            • 1




              Your "asymptotics" analysis is appreciable (+1). But in fact, the difficulty to apply it is to estimate in advance the error we are going to have. The matter is that actually we have the sum of variables uniformly distributed over a given range, which is limited, while the gaussian is unlimited and not enough "flat" in the central part to approximate the "box" function of the uniform.
              – G Cab
              Nov 30 '18 at 15:38






            • 1




              @GCab Right. As I mentioned, this approach works very well for the "bulk" of the distribution, but will consistently have a high relative error near the tails of the distribution. Notably, the absolute error of these kinds of estimates will still tend to $0$ as the number of dice increases, but that's mostly because both the true values and estimates will both tend to $0$. And estimating the error remains a challenge, yes.
              – Aaron Montgomery
              Nov 30 '18 at 16:07



















            0














            I found a simple answer based on a similar but different question:



            Where $n$ = number of dice, $m$ = sides of dice, $x$ = target score,



            $$ p = frac{nm - x + nchoose n} {m^n} $$



            But this answer only works when $(nm - x) < m$






            share|cite|improve this answer























            • apart from the denominator, which is the total n. of throws, for the numerator consider that $N_b(s,m,r)=N_b(mr-s,m,r)$ ($N_b$ being the number given in my answer). So your answer, missing a $-1$, corresponds to the term with $k=0$ of $N_b$. In the other post I give as reference it is explained the geometric analogy with determining the number of points on the diagonal plane of a hyper-cube ... Pls. read that and you will understand that your answer is in general wrong.
              – G Cab
              Nov 30 '18 at 14:37










            • Sorry your answer is too far above my ability level, I don't know where to start :( - other than that my formula produces the same as my brute force calculations. e.g. for n = 5, m = 20, x = 90, nominator produces 3003. If you care to explain it would be much appreciated!
              – james_alvarez
              Nov 30 '18 at 15:09










            • I forgot to mention that the reference you provided didn't seem to work...
              – james_alvarez
              Nov 30 '18 at 15:16










            • yes, sorry, I did not properly link to it: corrected.
              – G Cab
              Nov 30 '18 at 15:26










            • More testing reveals that indeed this simple formula above is indeed wrong, so I will have to trust yours as I can't figure out how to actually calculate it given the three parameters. I do think the above is correct for when (nm-x) < m. But you mention a missing -1? Where should that go? It seems ok when I'm comparing the result with my counting method in python.
              – james_alvarez
              Nov 30 '18 at 15:59













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            4 Answers
            4






            active

            oldest

            votes








            4 Answers
            4






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            2














            Concerning a "closed" ( = finite summation) formula, start from
            $$
            eqalign{
            & N_b (s - n,m - 1,n) = {rm No}{rm .},{rm of},{rm solutions},{rm to};left{ matrix{
            {rm 1} le {rm integer};x_{,j} le m hfill cr
            x_{,1} + x_{,2} + ; cdots ; + x_{,n} = s hfill cr} right. = cr
            & = {rm No}{rm .},{rm of},{rm solutions},{rm to};left{ matrix{
            0 le {rm integer};y_{,j} le m - 1 hfill cr
            y_{,1} + y_{,2} + ; cdots ; + y_{,n} = s - n hfill cr} right. cr}
            $$

            where $N_b$ is given by
            $$
            N_b (s,r,m)quad left| {;0 leqslant text{integers }s,m,r} right.quad =
            sumlimits_{left( {0, leqslant } right),,k,,left( { leqslant ,frac{s}{r+1}, leqslant ,m} right)}
            {left( { - 1} right)^k binom{m}{k}
            binom
            { s + m - 1 - kleft( {r + 1} right) }
            { s - kleft( {r + 1} right)} }
            $$

            as explained in this related post.



            Then the number of ways to obtain a sum $x le s$ is given by
            $$
            eqalign{
            & M(x,m,n) = sumlimits_{x, le ,s,left( { le ,m,n} right),} {N_b (s - n,m - 1,n)} = cr
            & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - 1,} {N_b (s - n,m - 1,n)} = cr
            & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - n - 1,} {N_b (s,m - 1,n)} = cr
            & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - n - 1,} {sumlimits_{left( {0, le } right),,k,,left( { le ,{s over m}, le ,n} right)}
            {left( { - 1} right)^k left( matrix{ n hfill cr
            k hfill cr} right)left( matrix{
            s + n - 1 - k,m cr
            s - k,m cr} right)} } = cr
            & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{left( {0, le } right),,k,,left( { le ,{s over m}, le ,n} right)} {left( { - 1} right)^k left( matrix{
            n hfill cr
            k hfill cr} right)left( matrix{
            x - 1 - k,m cr
            x - n - 1 - k,m cr} right)} cr}
            $$



            and in fact $M(90,20,5)=3003$.



            Note that, as explained in the cited related post, the problem has the geometric equivalent of finding:
            the number of integral points on the diagonal plane $y_1, cdots, y_n=s-n$, intercepted by a $n$-D cube
            with side $[0,m-1]$
            .

            The formula for $N_b$ corresponds to calculating the points on the whole plane ($k=0$) and subtracting those
            pertaining to the surrounding cubes.

            The geometric analogy clearly shows that $N_b(nm-s,m,n)=N_b(s,m,n)$.






            share|cite|improve this answer




























              2














              Concerning a "closed" ( = finite summation) formula, start from
              $$
              eqalign{
              & N_b (s - n,m - 1,n) = {rm No}{rm .},{rm of},{rm solutions},{rm to};left{ matrix{
              {rm 1} le {rm integer};x_{,j} le m hfill cr
              x_{,1} + x_{,2} + ; cdots ; + x_{,n} = s hfill cr} right. = cr
              & = {rm No}{rm .},{rm of},{rm solutions},{rm to};left{ matrix{
              0 le {rm integer};y_{,j} le m - 1 hfill cr
              y_{,1} + y_{,2} + ; cdots ; + y_{,n} = s - n hfill cr} right. cr}
              $$

              where $N_b$ is given by
              $$
              N_b (s,r,m)quad left| {;0 leqslant text{integers }s,m,r} right.quad =
              sumlimits_{left( {0, leqslant } right),,k,,left( { leqslant ,frac{s}{r+1}, leqslant ,m} right)}
              {left( { - 1} right)^k binom{m}{k}
              binom
              { s + m - 1 - kleft( {r + 1} right) }
              { s - kleft( {r + 1} right)} }
              $$

              as explained in this related post.



              Then the number of ways to obtain a sum $x le s$ is given by
              $$
              eqalign{
              & M(x,m,n) = sumlimits_{x, le ,s,left( { le ,m,n} right),} {N_b (s - n,m - 1,n)} = cr
              & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - 1,} {N_b (s - n,m - 1,n)} = cr
              & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - n - 1,} {N_b (s,m - 1,n)} = cr
              & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - n - 1,} {sumlimits_{left( {0, le } right),,k,,left( { le ,{s over m}, le ,n} right)}
              {left( { - 1} right)^k left( matrix{ n hfill cr
              k hfill cr} right)left( matrix{
              s + n - 1 - k,m cr
              s - k,m cr} right)} } = cr
              & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{left( {0, le } right),,k,,left( { le ,{s over m}, le ,n} right)} {left( { - 1} right)^k left( matrix{
              n hfill cr
              k hfill cr} right)left( matrix{
              x - 1 - k,m cr
              x - n - 1 - k,m cr} right)} cr}
              $$



              and in fact $M(90,20,5)=3003$.



              Note that, as explained in the cited related post, the problem has the geometric equivalent of finding:
              the number of integral points on the diagonal plane $y_1, cdots, y_n=s-n$, intercepted by a $n$-D cube
              with side $[0,m-1]$
              .

              The formula for $N_b$ corresponds to calculating the points on the whole plane ($k=0$) and subtracting those
              pertaining to the surrounding cubes.

              The geometric analogy clearly shows that $N_b(nm-s,m,n)=N_b(s,m,n)$.






              share|cite|improve this answer


























                2












                2








                2






                Concerning a "closed" ( = finite summation) formula, start from
                $$
                eqalign{
                & N_b (s - n,m - 1,n) = {rm No}{rm .},{rm of},{rm solutions},{rm to};left{ matrix{
                {rm 1} le {rm integer};x_{,j} le m hfill cr
                x_{,1} + x_{,2} + ; cdots ; + x_{,n} = s hfill cr} right. = cr
                & = {rm No}{rm .},{rm of},{rm solutions},{rm to};left{ matrix{
                0 le {rm integer};y_{,j} le m - 1 hfill cr
                y_{,1} + y_{,2} + ; cdots ; + y_{,n} = s - n hfill cr} right. cr}
                $$

                where $N_b$ is given by
                $$
                N_b (s,r,m)quad left| {;0 leqslant text{integers }s,m,r} right.quad =
                sumlimits_{left( {0, leqslant } right),,k,,left( { leqslant ,frac{s}{r+1}, leqslant ,m} right)}
                {left( { - 1} right)^k binom{m}{k}
                binom
                { s + m - 1 - kleft( {r + 1} right) }
                { s - kleft( {r + 1} right)} }
                $$

                as explained in this related post.



                Then the number of ways to obtain a sum $x le s$ is given by
                $$
                eqalign{
                & M(x,m,n) = sumlimits_{x, le ,s,left( { le ,m,n} right),} {N_b (s - n,m - 1,n)} = cr
                & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - 1,} {N_b (s - n,m - 1,n)} = cr
                & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - n - 1,} {N_b (s,m - 1,n)} = cr
                & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - n - 1,} {sumlimits_{left( {0, le } right),,k,,left( { le ,{s over m}, le ,n} right)}
                {left( { - 1} right)^k left( matrix{ n hfill cr
                k hfill cr} right)left( matrix{
                s + n - 1 - k,m cr
                s - k,m cr} right)} } = cr
                & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{left( {0, le } right),,k,,left( { le ,{s over m}, le ,n} right)} {left( { - 1} right)^k left( matrix{
                n hfill cr
                k hfill cr} right)left( matrix{
                x - 1 - k,m cr
                x - n - 1 - k,m cr} right)} cr}
                $$



                and in fact $M(90,20,5)=3003$.



                Note that, as explained in the cited related post, the problem has the geometric equivalent of finding:
                the number of integral points on the diagonal plane $y_1, cdots, y_n=s-n$, intercepted by a $n$-D cube
                with side $[0,m-1]$
                .

                The formula for $N_b$ corresponds to calculating the points on the whole plane ($k=0$) and subtracting those
                pertaining to the surrounding cubes.

                The geometric analogy clearly shows that $N_b(nm-s,m,n)=N_b(s,m,n)$.






                share|cite|improve this answer














                Concerning a "closed" ( = finite summation) formula, start from
                $$
                eqalign{
                & N_b (s - n,m - 1,n) = {rm No}{rm .},{rm of},{rm solutions},{rm to};left{ matrix{
                {rm 1} le {rm integer};x_{,j} le m hfill cr
                x_{,1} + x_{,2} + ; cdots ; + x_{,n} = s hfill cr} right. = cr
                & = {rm No}{rm .},{rm of},{rm solutions},{rm to};left{ matrix{
                0 le {rm integer};y_{,j} le m - 1 hfill cr
                y_{,1} + y_{,2} + ; cdots ; + y_{,n} = s - n hfill cr} right. cr}
                $$

                where $N_b$ is given by
                $$
                N_b (s,r,m)quad left| {;0 leqslant text{integers }s,m,r} right.quad =
                sumlimits_{left( {0, leqslant } right),,k,,left( { leqslant ,frac{s}{r+1}, leqslant ,m} right)}
                {left( { - 1} right)^k binom{m}{k}
                binom
                { s + m - 1 - kleft( {r + 1} right) }
                { s - kleft( {r + 1} right)} }
                $$

                as explained in this related post.



                Then the number of ways to obtain a sum $x le s$ is given by
                $$
                eqalign{
                & M(x,m,n) = sumlimits_{x, le ,s,left( { le ,m,n} right),} {N_b (s - n,m - 1,n)} = cr
                & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - 1,} {N_b (s - n,m - 1,n)} = cr
                & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - n - 1,} {N_b (s,m - 1,n)} = cr
                & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{0, le ,s, le ,x - n - 1,} {sumlimits_{left( {0, le } right),,k,,left( { le ,{s over m}, le ,n} right)}
                {left( { - 1} right)^k left( matrix{ n hfill cr
                k hfill cr} right)left( matrix{
                s + n - 1 - k,m cr
                s - k,m cr} right)} } = cr
                & = m^{,n} - sumlimits_{left( {0, le } right),,k,,left( { le ,{s over m}, le ,n} right)} {left( { - 1} right)^k left( matrix{
                n hfill cr
                k hfill cr} right)left( matrix{
                x - 1 - k,m cr
                x - n - 1 - k,m cr} right)} cr}
                $$



                and in fact $M(90,20,5)=3003$.



                Note that, as explained in the cited related post, the problem has the geometric equivalent of finding:
                the number of integral points on the diagonal plane $y_1, cdots, y_n=s-n$, intercepted by a $n$-D cube
                with side $[0,m-1]$
                .

                The formula for $N_b$ corresponds to calculating the points on the whole plane ($k=0$) and subtracting those
                pertaining to the surrounding cubes.

                The geometric analogy clearly shows that $N_b(nm-s,m,n)=N_b(s,m,n)$.







                share|cite|improve this answer














                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer








                edited Nov 30 '18 at 15:23

























                answered Nov 29 '18 at 12:25









                G Cab

                18k31237




                18k31237























                    2














                    You could try to solve this using the Chebychev inequality. This should at least give you an estimate.






                    share|cite|improve this answer





















                    • nice idea (+1), but same comment as to the answer above.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:40
















                    2














                    You could try to solve this using the Chebychev inequality. This should at least give you an estimate.






                    share|cite|improve this answer





















                    • nice idea (+1), but same comment as to the answer above.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:40














                    2












                    2








                    2






                    You could try to solve this using the Chebychev inequality. This should at least give you an estimate.






                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    You could try to solve this using the Chebychev inequality. This should at least give you an estimate.







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered Nov 29 '18 at 11:57









                    Thomas Lang

                    1624




                    1624












                    • nice idea (+1), but same comment as to the answer above.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:40


















                    • nice idea (+1), but same comment as to the answer above.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:40
















                    nice idea (+1), but same comment as to the answer above.
                    – G Cab
                    Nov 30 '18 at 15:40




                    nice idea (+1), but same comment as to the answer above.
                    – G Cab
                    Nov 30 '18 at 15:40











                    2














                    G Cab gave a good closed-form answer, and it may well be what you're looking for.



                    Another approach that works decently well -- particularly if the number of dice is large at all, or if you're looking for events that are closer to the mean results -- is to use a Central Limit Theorem approximation. Here's how that would play out for your example in the problem text:



                    First: we're going to use something continuous to approximate something discrete, so let's do it carefully. If $S$ is the sum, we want to know about $mathbb P(S > 90) = mathbb P (S geq 91)$, so we'll split the difference and consider $S = 90.5$. (This is the so-called "continuity correction.")



                    Asking whether the sum of five dice will be at least $90.5$ is equivalent to asking whether the average of five dice will exceed $90.5/5 = 18.1$. For one single die, the expected die roll is $10.5$ and the standard deviation of the die roll is $sqrt{133}/2$. If you average $n$ of these (independent) rolls together, the average will be an approximately normal random variable with mean $10.5$ and standard deviation $sqrt{133}/(2 sqrt n)$; in the case of $n = 5$, this is roughly $2.579$. The question then becomes: "How often does a normal random variable with those properties exceed $18.1$?" Use your favorite calculator, or a $Z$-score technique and a table of known values about the standard normal distribution, to get an answer of about $0.0016$.



                    Then, stop and appreciate the fact that our answer wasn't that great! It was off by a factor of almost 10. So, what happened? Well, two things: (1) the approximation would have worked better if we were using more dice, and (2) the approximation would have worked better if we were considering numbers closer to the expected average of $10.5$. For instance, let's redo the problem with asking about the sum of five dice being larger than $60$ (again, we'll use $60.5$): it can be shown (click the "at least" button on the link) that the true probability is about $0.2730$, and repeating the above procedure gives an answer of $0.2804$ as our approximation.



                    So, why is this worth doing? For five dice, maybe it's not. But for more dice, this gives a really efficient way of getting a good approximation (that, again, gets better and better the more dice you use) that can save you from some truly obnoxious combinatorics and enormous numbers. As another example of the value of this tactic: the true probability that the sum of $10$ dice exceeds $100$ is $0.5961$, and the aforementioned tactic gives an estimate of $0.5975$. This approach scales really well with the number of dice in a way that doing actual counting does not.






                    share|cite|improve this answer

















                    • 1




                      Your "asymptotics" analysis is appreciable (+1). But in fact, the difficulty to apply it is to estimate in advance the error we are going to have. The matter is that actually we have the sum of variables uniformly distributed over a given range, which is limited, while the gaussian is unlimited and not enough "flat" in the central part to approximate the "box" function of the uniform.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:38






                    • 1




                      @GCab Right. As I mentioned, this approach works very well for the "bulk" of the distribution, but will consistently have a high relative error near the tails of the distribution. Notably, the absolute error of these kinds of estimates will still tend to $0$ as the number of dice increases, but that's mostly because both the true values and estimates will both tend to $0$. And estimating the error remains a challenge, yes.
                      – Aaron Montgomery
                      Nov 30 '18 at 16:07
















                    2














                    G Cab gave a good closed-form answer, and it may well be what you're looking for.



                    Another approach that works decently well -- particularly if the number of dice is large at all, or if you're looking for events that are closer to the mean results -- is to use a Central Limit Theorem approximation. Here's how that would play out for your example in the problem text:



                    First: we're going to use something continuous to approximate something discrete, so let's do it carefully. If $S$ is the sum, we want to know about $mathbb P(S > 90) = mathbb P (S geq 91)$, so we'll split the difference and consider $S = 90.5$. (This is the so-called "continuity correction.")



                    Asking whether the sum of five dice will be at least $90.5$ is equivalent to asking whether the average of five dice will exceed $90.5/5 = 18.1$. For one single die, the expected die roll is $10.5$ and the standard deviation of the die roll is $sqrt{133}/2$. If you average $n$ of these (independent) rolls together, the average will be an approximately normal random variable with mean $10.5$ and standard deviation $sqrt{133}/(2 sqrt n)$; in the case of $n = 5$, this is roughly $2.579$. The question then becomes: "How often does a normal random variable with those properties exceed $18.1$?" Use your favorite calculator, or a $Z$-score technique and a table of known values about the standard normal distribution, to get an answer of about $0.0016$.



                    Then, stop and appreciate the fact that our answer wasn't that great! It was off by a factor of almost 10. So, what happened? Well, two things: (1) the approximation would have worked better if we were using more dice, and (2) the approximation would have worked better if we were considering numbers closer to the expected average of $10.5$. For instance, let's redo the problem with asking about the sum of five dice being larger than $60$ (again, we'll use $60.5$): it can be shown (click the "at least" button on the link) that the true probability is about $0.2730$, and repeating the above procedure gives an answer of $0.2804$ as our approximation.



                    So, why is this worth doing? For five dice, maybe it's not. But for more dice, this gives a really efficient way of getting a good approximation (that, again, gets better and better the more dice you use) that can save you from some truly obnoxious combinatorics and enormous numbers. As another example of the value of this tactic: the true probability that the sum of $10$ dice exceeds $100$ is $0.5961$, and the aforementioned tactic gives an estimate of $0.5975$. This approach scales really well with the number of dice in a way that doing actual counting does not.






                    share|cite|improve this answer

















                    • 1




                      Your "asymptotics" analysis is appreciable (+1). But in fact, the difficulty to apply it is to estimate in advance the error we are going to have. The matter is that actually we have the sum of variables uniformly distributed over a given range, which is limited, while the gaussian is unlimited and not enough "flat" in the central part to approximate the "box" function of the uniform.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:38






                    • 1




                      @GCab Right. As I mentioned, this approach works very well for the "bulk" of the distribution, but will consistently have a high relative error near the tails of the distribution. Notably, the absolute error of these kinds of estimates will still tend to $0$ as the number of dice increases, but that's mostly because both the true values and estimates will both tend to $0$. And estimating the error remains a challenge, yes.
                      – Aaron Montgomery
                      Nov 30 '18 at 16:07














                    2












                    2








                    2






                    G Cab gave a good closed-form answer, and it may well be what you're looking for.



                    Another approach that works decently well -- particularly if the number of dice is large at all, or if you're looking for events that are closer to the mean results -- is to use a Central Limit Theorem approximation. Here's how that would play out for your example in the problem text:



                    First: we're going to use something continuous to approximate something discrete, so let's do it carefully. If $S$ is the sum, we want to know about $mathbb P(S > 90) = mathbb P (S geq 91)$, so we'll split the difference and consider $S = 90.5$. (This is the so-called "continuity correction.")



                    Asking whether the sum of five dice will be at least $90.5$ is equivalent to asking whether the average of five dice will exceed $90.5/5 = 18.1$. For one single die, the expected die roll is $10.5$ and the standard deviation of the die roll is $sqrt{133}/2$. If you average $n$ of these (independent) rolls together, the average will be an approximately normal random variable with mean $10.5$ and standard deviation $sqrt{133}/(2 sqrt n)$; in the case of $n = 5$, this is roughly $2.579$. The question then becomes: "How often does a normal random variable with those properties exceed $18.1$?" Use your favorite calculator, or a $Z$-score technique and a table of known values about the standard normal distribution, to get an answer of about $0.0016$.



                    Then, stop and appreciate the fact that our answer wasn't that great! It was off by a factor of almost 10. So, what happened? Well, two things: (1) the approximation would have worked better if we were using more dice, and (2) the approximation would have worked better if we were considering numbers closer to the expected average of $10.5$. For instance, let's redo the problem with asking about the sum of five dice being larger than $60$ (again, we'll use $60.5$): it can be shown (click the "at least" button on the link) that the true probability is about $0.2730$, and repeating the above procedure gives an answer of $0.2804$ as our approximation.



                    So, why is this worth doing? For five dice, maybe it's not. But for more dice, this gives a really efficient way of getting a good approximation (that, again, gets better and better the more dice you use) that can save you from some truly obnoxious combinatorics and enormous numbers. As another example of the value of this tactic: the true probability that the sum of $10$ dice exceeds $100$ is $0.5961$, and the aforementioned tactic gives an estimate of $0.5975$. This approach scales really well with the number of dice in a way that doing actual counting does not.






                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    G Cab gave a good closed-form answer, and it may well be what you're looking for.



                    Another approach that works decently well -- particularly if the number of dice is large at all, or if you're looking for events that are closer to the mean results -- is to use a Central Limit Theorem approximation. Here's how that would play out for your example in the problem text:



                    First: we're going to use something continuous to approximate something discrete, so let's do it carefully. If $S$ is the sum, we want to know about $mathbb P(S > 90) = mathbb P (S geq 91)$, so we'll split the difference and consider $S = 90.5$. (This is the so-called "continuity correction.")



                    Asking whether the sum of five dice will be at least $90.5$ is equivalent to asking whether the average of five dice will exceed $90.5/5 = 18.1$. For one single die, the expected die roll is $10.5$ and the standard deviation of the die roll is $sqrt{133}/2$. If you average $n$ of these (independent) rolls together, the average will be an approximately normal random variable with mean $10.5$ and standard deviation $sqrt{133}/(2 sqrt n)$; in the case of $n = 5$, this is roughly $2.579$. The question then becomes: "How often does a normal random variable with those properties exceed $18.1$?" Use your favorite calculator, or a $Z$-score technique and a table of known values about the standard normal distribution, to get an answer of about $0.0016$.



                    Then, stop and appreciate the fact that our answer wasn't that great! It was off by a factor of almost 10. So, what happened? Well, two things: (1) the approximation would have worked better if we were using more dice, and (2) the approximation would have worked better if we were considering numbers closer to the expected average of $10.5$. For instance, let's redo the problem with asking about the sum of five dice being larger than $60$ (again, we'll use $60.5$): it can be shown (click the "at least" button on the link) that the true probability is about $0.2730$, and repeating the above procedure gives an answer of $0.2804$ as our approximation.



                    So, why is this worth doing? For five dice, maybe it's not. But for more dice, this gives a really efficient way of getting a good approximation (that, again, gets better and better the more dice you use) that can save you from some truly obnoxious combinatorics and enormous numbers. As another example of the value of this tactic: the true probability that the sum of $10$ dice exceeds $100$ is $0.5961$, and the aforementioned tactic gives an estimate of $0.5975$. This approach scales really well with the number of dice in a way that doing actual counting does not.







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered Nov 29 '18 at 17:06









                    Aaron Montgomery

                    4,712523




                    4,712523








                    • 1




                      Your "asymptotics" analysis is appreciable (+1). But in fact, the difficulty to apply it is to estimate in advance the error we are going to have. The matter is that actually we have the sum of variables uniformly distributed over a given range, which is limited, while the gaussian is unlimited and not enough "flat" in the central part to approximate the "box" function of the uniform.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:38






                    • 1




                      @GCab Right. As I mentioned, this approach works very well for the "bulk" of the distribution, but will consistently have a high relative error near the tails of the distribution. Notably, the absolute error of these kinds of estimates will still tend to $0$ as the number of dice increases, but that's mostly because both the true values and estimates will both tend to $0$. And estimating the error remains a challenge, yes.
                      – Aaron Montgomery
                      Nov 30 '18 at 16:07














                    • 1




                      Your "asymptotics" analysis is appreciable (+1). But in fact, the difficulty to apply it is to estimate in advance the error we are going to have. The matter is that actually we have the sum of variables uniformly distributed over a given range, which is limited, while the gaussian is unlimited and not enough "flat" in the central part to approximate the "box" function of the uniform.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:38






                    • 1




                      @GCab Right. As I mentioned, this approach works very well for the "bulk" of the distribution, but will consistently have a high relative error near the tails of the distribution. Notably, the absolute error of these kinds of estimates will still tend to $0$ as the number of dice increases, but that's mostly because both the true values and estimates will both tend to $0$. And estimating the error remains a challenge, yes.
                      – Aaron Montgomery
                      Nov 30 '18 at 16:07








                    1




                    1




                    Your "asymptotics" analysis is appreciable (+1). But in fact, the difficulty to apply it is to estimate in advance the error we are going to have. The matter is that actually we have the sum of variables uniformly distributed over a given range, which is limited, while the gaussian is unlimited and not enough "flat" in the central part to approximate the "box" function of the uniform.
                    – G Cab
                    Nov 30 '18 at 15:38




                    Your "asymptotics" analysis is appreciable (+1). But in fact, the difficulty to apply it is to estimate in advance the error we are going to have. The matter is that actually we have the sum of variables uniformly distributed over a given range, which is limited, while the gaussian is unlimited and not enough "flat" in the central part to approximate the "box" function of the uniform.
                    – G Cab
                    Nov 30 '18 at 15:38




                    1




                    1




                    @GCab Right. As I mentioned, this approach works very well for the "bulk" of the distribution, but will consistently have a high relative error near the tails of the distribution. Notably, the absolute error of these kinds of estimates will still tend to $0$ as the number of dice increases, but that's mostly because both the true values and estimates will both tend to $0$. And estimating the error remains a challenge, yes.
                    – Aaron Montgomery
                    Nov 30 '18 at 16:07




                    @GCab Right. As I mentioned, this approach works very well for the "bulk" of the distribution, but will consistently have a high relative error near the tails of the distribution. Notably, the absolute error of these kinds of estimates will still tend to $0$ as the number of dice increases, but that's mostly because both the true values and estimates will both tend to $0$. And estimating the error remains a challenge, yes.
                    – Aaron Montgomery
                    Nov 30 '18 at 16:07











                    0














                    I found a simple answer based on a similar but different question:



                    Where $n$ = number of dice, $m$ = sides of dice, $x$ = target score,



                    $$ p = frac{nm - x + nchoose n} {m^n} $$



                    But this answer only works when $(nm - x) < m$






                    share|cite|improve this answer























                    • apart from the denominator, which is the total n. of throws, for the numerator consider that $N_b(s,m,r)=N_b(mr-s,m,r)$ ($N_b$ being the number given in my answer). So your answer, missing a $-1$, corresponds to the term with $k=0$ of $N_b$. In the other post I give as reference it is explained the geometric analogy with determining the number of points on the diagonal plane of a hyper-cube ... Pls. read that and you will understand that your answer is in general wrong.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 14:37










                    • Sorry your answer is too far above my ability level, I don't know where to start :( - other than that my formula produces the same as my brute force calculations. e.g. for n = 5, m = 20, x = 90, nominator produces 3003. If you care to explain it would be much appreciated!
                      – james_alvarez
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:09










                    • I forgot to mention that the reference you provided didn't seem to work...
                      – james_alvarez
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:16










                    • yes, sorry, I did not properly link to it: corrected.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:26










                    • More testing reveals that indeed this simple formula above is indeed wrong, so I will have to trust yours as I can't figure out how to actually calculate it given the three parameters. I do think the above is correct for when (nm-x) < m. But you mention a missing -1? Where should that go? It seems ok when I'm comparing the result with my counting method in python.
                      – james_alvarez
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:59


















                    0














                    I found a simple answer based on a similar but different question:



                    Where $n$ = number of dice, $m$ = sides of dice, $x$ = target score,



                    $$ p = frac{nm - x + nchoose n} {m^n} $$



                    But this answer only works when $(nm - x) < m$






                    share|cite|improve this answer























                    • apart from the denominator, which is the total n. of throws, for the numerator consider that $N_b(s,m,r)=N_b(mr-s,m,r)$ ($N_b$ being the number given in my answer). So your answer, missing a $-1$, corresponds to the term with $k=0$ of $N_b$. In the other post I give as reference it is explained the geometric analogy with determining the number of points on the diagonal plane of a hyper-cube ... Pls. read that and you will understand that your answer is in general wrong.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 14:37










                    • Sorry your answer is too far above my ability level, I don't know where to start :( - other than that my formula produces the same as my brute force calculations. e.g. for n = 5, m = 20, x = 90, nominator produces 3003. If you care to explain it would be much appreciated!
                      – james_alvarez
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:09










                    • I forgot to mention that the reference you provided didn't seem to work...
                      – james_alvarez
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:16










                    • yes, sorry, I did not properly link to it: corrected.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:26










                    • More testing reveals that indeed this simple formula above is indeed wrong, so I will have to trust yours as I can't figure out how to actually calculate it given the three parameters. I do think the above is correct for when (nm-x) < m. But you mention a missing -1? Where should that go? It seems ok when I'm comparing the result with my counting method in python.
                      – james_alvarez
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:59
















                    0












                    0








                    0






                    I found a simple answer based on a similar but different question:



                    Where $n$ = number of dice, $m$ = sides of dice, $x$ = target score,



                    $$ p = frac{nm - x + nchoose n} {m^n} $$



                    But this answer only works when $(nm - x) < m$






                    share|cite|improve this answer














                    I found a simple answer based on a similar but different question:



                    Where $n$ = number of dice, $m$ = sides of dice, $x$ = target score,



                    $$ p = frac{nm - x + nchoose n} {m^n} $$



                    But this answer only works when $(nm - x) < m$







                    share|cite|improve this answer














                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer








                    edited Nov 30 '18 at 15:54

























                    answered Nov 30 '18 at 9:34









                    james_alvarez

                    1266




                    1266












                    • apart from the denominator, which is the total n. of throws, for the numerator consider that $N_b(s,m,r)=N_b(mr-s,m,r)$ ($N_b$ being the number given in my answer). So your answer, missing a $-1$, corresponds to the term with $k=0$ of $N_b$. In the other post I give as reference it is explained the geometric analogy with determining the number of points on the diagonal plane of a hyper-cube ... Pls. read that and you will understand that your answer is in general wrong.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 14:37










                    • Sorry your answer is too far above my ability level, I don't know where to start :( - other than that my formula produces the same as my brute force calculations. e.g. for n = 5, m = 20, x = 90, nominator produces 3003. If you care to explain it would be much appreciated!
                      – james_alvarez
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:09










                    • I forgot to mention that the reference you provided didn't seem to work...
                      – james_alvarez
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:16










                    • yes, sorry, I did not properly link to it: corrected.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:26










                    • More testing reveals that indeed this simple formula above is indeed wrong, so I will have to trust yours as I can't figure out how to actually calculate it given the three parameters. I do think the above is correct for when (nm-x) < m. But you mention a missing -1? Where should that go? It seems ok when I'm comparing the result with my counting method in python.
                      – james_alvarez
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:59




















                    • apart from the denominator, which is the total n. of throws, for the numerator consider that $N_b(s,m,r)=N_b(mr-s,m,r)$ ($N_b$ being the number given in my answer). So your answer, missing a $-1$, corresponds to the term with $k=0$ of $N_b$. In the other post I give as reference it is explained the geometric analogy with determining the number of points on the diagonal plane of a hyper-cube ... Pls. read that and you will understand that your answer is in general wrong.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 14:37










                    • Sorry your answer is too far above my ability level, I don't know where to start :( - other than that my formula produces the same as my brute force calculations. e.g. for n = 5, m = 20, x = 90, nominator produces 3003. If you care to explain it would be much appreciated!
                      – james_alvarez
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:09










                    • I forgot to mention that the reference you provided didn't seem to work...
                      – james_alvarez
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:16










                    • yes, sorry, I did not properly link to it: corrected.
                      – G Cab
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:26










                    • More testing reveals that indeed this simple formula above is indeed wrong, so I will have to trust yours as I can't figure out how to actually calculate it given the three parameters. I do think the above is correct for when (nm-x) < m. But you mention a missing -1? Where should that go? It seems ok when I'm comparing the result with my counting method in python.
                      – james_alvarez
                      Nov 30 '18 at 15:59


















                    apart from the denominator, which is the total n. of throws, for the numerator consider that $N_b(s,m,r)=N_b(mr-s,m,r)$ ($N_b$ being the number given in my answer). So your answer, missing a $-1$, corresponds to the term with $k=0$ of $N_b$. In the other post I give as reference it is explained the geometric analogy with determining the number of points on the diagonal plane of a hyper-cube ... Pls. read that and you will understand that your answer is in general wrong.
                    – G Cab
                    Nov 30 '18 at 14:37




                    apart from the denominator, which is the total n. of throws, for the numerator consider that $N_b(s,m,r)=N_b(mr-s,m,r)$ ($N_b$ being the number given in my answer). So your answer, missing a $-1$, corresponds to the term with $k=0$ of $N_b$. In the other post I give as reference it is explained the geometric analogy with determining the number of points on the diagonal plane of a hyper-cube ... Pls. read that and you will understand that your answer is in general wrong.
                    – G Cab
                    Nov 30 '18 at 14:37












                    Sorry your answer is too far above my ability level, I don't know where to start :( - other than that my formula produces the same as my brute force calculations. e.g. for n = 5, m = 20, x = 90, nominator produces 3003. If you care to explain it would be much appreciated!
                    – james_alvarez
                    Nov 30 '18 at 15:09




                    Sorry your answer is too far above my ability level, I don't know where to start :( - other than that my formula produces the same as my brute force calculations. e.g. for n = 5, m = 20, x = 90, nominator produces 3003. If you care to explain it would be much appreciated!
                    – james_alvarez
                    Nov 30 '18 at 15:09












                    I forgot to mention that the reference you provided didn't seem to work...
                    – james_alvarez
                    Nov 30 '18 at 15:16




                    I forgot to mention that the reference you provided didn't seem to work...
                    – james_alvarez
                    Nov 30 '18 at 15:16












                    yes, sorry, I did not properly link to it: corrected.
                    – G Cab
                    Nov 30 '18 at 15:26




                    yes, sorry, I did not properly link to it: corrected.
                    – G Cab
                    Nov 30 '18 at 15:26












                    More testing reveals that indeed this simple formula above is indeed wrong, so I will have to trust yours as I can't figure out how to actually calculate it given the three parameters. I do think the above is correct for when (nm-x) < m. But you mention a missing -1? Where should that go? It seems ok when I'm comparing the result with my counting method in python.
                    – james_alvarez
                    Nov 30 '18 at 15:59






                    More testing reveals that indeed this simple formula above is indeed wrong, so I will have to trust yours as I can't figure out how to actually calculate it given the three parameters. I do think the above is correct for when (nm-x) < m. But you mention a missing -1? Where should that go? It seems ok when I'm comparing the result with my counting method in python.
                    – james_alvarez
                    Nov 30 '18 at 15:59




















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