How was the “elliptical dual” used?
In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.
Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").
This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.
greek grammar-identification dual
asked Dec 11 at 22:27
Draconis
14.3k11960
add a comment |
In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.
Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").
This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.
greek grammar-identification dual
asked Dec 11 at 22:27
Draconis
14.3k11960
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
Dec 12 at 1:25
add a comment |
In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.
Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").
This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.
greek grammar-identification dual
asked Dec 11 at 22:27
Draconis
14.3k11960
In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.
Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").
This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.
greek grammar-identification dual
greek grammar-identification dual
asked Dec 11 at 22:27
Draconis
14.3k11960
asked Dec 11 at 22:27
Draconis
14.3k11960
edited Dec 11 at 22:45
asked Dec 11 at 22:27
Draconis
14.3k11960
asked Dec 11 at 22:27
Draconis
14.3k11960
asked Dec 11 at 22:27
Draconis
14.3k11960
14.3k11960
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
Dec 12 at 1:25
add a comment |
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
Dec 12 at 1:25
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
Dec 12 at 1:25
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
Dec 12 at 1:25
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
aulūkhalau "mortar-DUAL" = "mortar and pestle"
There are similar examples in Avestan, and possibly in Lithuanian and Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has examples using plural morphology: Castorēs "Castor and Pollux", Cererēs "Ceres and Persephone".
answered Dec 11 at 22:52
TKR
13.5k2755
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
Dec 11 at 23:05
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
Dec 11 at 23:10
1
(Called ekaśeṣa (एकशेष) by the Sanskrit grammarians, if anyone wants to read more about the Sanskrit case.)
– ShreevatsaR
Dec 12 at 7:07
add a comment |
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
answered Dec 11 at 23:38
fdb
10.4k11127
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "644"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2flatin.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f7698%2fhow-was-the-elliptical-dual-used%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
aulūkhalau "mortar-DUAL" = "mortar and pestle"
There are similar examples in Avestan, and possibly in Lithuanian and Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has examples using plural morphology: Castorēs "Castor and Pollux", Cererēs "Ceres and Persephone".
answered Dec 11 at 22:52
TKR
13.5k2755
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
Dec 11 at 23:05
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
Dec 11 at 23:10
1
(Called ekaśeṣa (एकशेष) by the Sanskrit grammarians, if anyone wants to read more about the Sanskrit case.)
– ShreevatsaR
Dec 12 at 7:07
add a comment |
I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
aulūkhalau "mortar-DUAL" = "mortar and pestle"
There are similar examples in Avestan, and possibly in Lithuanian and Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has examples using plural morphology: Castorēs "Castor and Pollux", Cererēs "Ceres and Persephone".
answered Dec 11 at 22:52
TKR
13.5k2755
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
Dec 11 at 23:05
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
Dec 11 at 23:10
1
(Called ekaśeṣa (एकशेष) by the Sanskrit grammarians, if anyone wants to read more about the Sanskrit case.)
– ShreevatsaR
Dec 12 at 7:07
add a comment |
I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
aulūkhalau "mortar-DUAL" = "mortar and pestle"
There are similar examples in Avestan, and possibly in Lithuanian and Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has examples using plural morphology: Castorēs "Castor and Pollux", Cererēs "Ceres and Persephone".
answered Dec 11 at 22:52
TKR
13.5k2755
I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
aulūkhalau "mortar-DUAL" = "mortar and pestle"
There are similar examples in Avestan, and possibly in Lithuanian and Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has examples using plural morphology: Castorēs "Castor and Pollux", Cererēs "Ceres and Persephone".
answered Dec 11 at 22:52
TKR
13.5k2755
edited Dec 12 at 4:29
answered Dec 11 at 22:52
TKR
13.5k2755
answered Dec 11 at 22:52
TKR
13.5k2755
answered Dec 11 at 22:52
TKR
13.5k2755
13.5k2755
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
Dec 11 at 23:05
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
Dec 11 at 23:10
1
(Called ekaśeṣa (एकशेष) by the Sanskrit grammarians, if anyone wants to read more about the Sanskrit case.)
– ShreevatsaR
Dec 12 at 7:07
add a comment |
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
Dec 11 at 23:05
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
Dec 11 at 23:10
1
(Called ekaśeṣa (एकशेष) by the Sanskrit grammarians, if anyone wants to read more about the Sanskrit case.)
– ShreevatsaR
Dec 12 at 7:07
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
Dec 11 at 23:05
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
Dec 11 at 23:05
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
Dec 11 at 23:10
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
Dec 11 at 23:10
1
1
(Called ekaśeṣa (एकशेष) by the Sanskrit grammarians, if anyone wants to read more about the Sanskrit case.)
– ShreevatsaR
Dec 12 at 7:07
(Called ekaśeṣa (एकशेष) by the Sanskrit grammarians, if anyone wants to read more about the Sanskrit case.)
– ShreevatsaR
Dec 12 at 7:07
add a comment |
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
answered Dec 11 at 23:38
fdb
10.4k11127
add a comment |
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
answered Dec 11 at 23:38
fdb
10.4k11127
add a comment |
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
answered Dec 11 at 23:38
fdb
10.4k11127
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
answered Dec 11 at 23:38
fdb
10.4k11127
answered Dec 11 at 23:38
fdb
10.4k11127
answered Dec 11 at 23:38
fdb
10.4k11127
answered Dec 11 at 23:38
fdb
10.4k11127
10.4k11127
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Latin Language Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.
Please pay close attention to the following guidance:
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2flatin.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f7698%2fhow-was-the-elliptical-dual-used%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
Dec 12 at 1:25