How to check if a cover is normal given the action on a fiber.












1












$begingroup$


Assume you have a space $X$ and a homomorphism $r:pi_1Xto S_n$. Then $r$ defines a n-sheeted covering space $Y$ of $X$. My question is, can you immediatly determine if $Y$ is a normal covering using only $r$ (without computing $pi_1Ysubsetpi_1X $ and checking if it is a normal subgroup.



Example: $X=S^1vee S^1$, and let $a,b$ denote the two generators of $pi_1 X$. Look at the r defined via $amapsto (12), bmapsto(123).$ This gives rise to a three sheeted cover $Y$ over $X$. Is this cover normal?



Again, I can check it because in this case it is very easy to draw $Y$ and it is possible to calculate $pi_1Y$ by using Van Kampen. My question is - can you see if $Y$ is normal or not only by looking at $r$.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Isn't a covering normal precisely when the action on a fiber is transitive?
    $endgroup$
    – Hempelicious
    Dec 2 '18 at 19:17










  • $begingroup$
    It is when the deck transformations act transitevly. Our action is a bit different (For example this is nor the universal cover so $pi_1X$ is "larger" than $G(Y)$ so that $pi_1$ maybe acts transitevly but $G(Y)$ doesn't.
    $endgroup$
    – Benny Zack
    Dec 2 '18 at 19:19










  • $begingroup$
    Doesn't $r$ give you the action on a fiber?
    $endgroup$
    – Hempelicious
    Dec 2 '18 at 19:22










  • $begingroup$
    There are two, generally different, actions on a fiber. The first is the action of the deck transformation group $G(X)$, and the second is the action of the fundamental group $pi_1X$. A normal covering is a covering where the first action is transitive. I am given information about the second action.
    $endgroup$
    – Benny Zack
    Dec 2 '18 at 20:06








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    If you have the action of $pi_1(X)$ on the fiber, then the image of $pi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer.
    $endgroup$
    – Hempelicious
    Dec 3 '18 at 4:44
















1












$begingroup$


Assume you have a space $X$ and a homomorphism $r:pi_1Xto S_n$. Then $r$ defines a n-sheeted covering space $Y$ of $X$. My question is, can you immediatly determine if $Y$ is a normal covering using only $r$ (without computing $pi_1Ysubsetpi_1X $ and checking if it is a normal subgroup.



Example: $X=S^1vee S^1$, and let $a,b$ denote the two generators of $pi_1 X$. Look at the r defined via $amapsto (12), bmapsto(123).$ This gives rise to a three sheeted cover $Y$ over $X$. Is this cover normal?



Again, I can check it because in this case it is very easy to draw $Y$ and it is possible to calculate $pi_1Y$ by using Van Kampen. My question is - can you see if $Y$ is normal or not only by looking at $r$.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Isn't a covering normal precisely when the action on a fiber is transitive?
    $endgroup$
    – Hempelicious
    Dec 2 '18 at 19:17










  • $begingroup$
    It is when the deck transformations act transitevly. Our action is a bit different (For example this is nor the universal cover so $pi_1X$ is "larger" than $G(Y)$ so that $pi_1$ maybe acts transitevly but $G(Y)$ doesn't.
    $endgroup$
    – Benny Zack
    Dec 2 '18 at 19:19










  • $begingroup$
    Doesn't $r$ give you the action on a fiber?
    $endgroup$
    – Hempelicious
    Dec 2 '18 at 19:22










  • $begingroup$
    There are two, generally different, actions on a fiber. The first is the action of the deck transformation group $G(X)$, and the second is the action of the fundamental group $pi_1X$. A normal covering is a covering where the first action is transitive. I am given information about the second action.
    $endgroup$
    – Benny Zack
    Dec 2 '18 at 20:06








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    If you have the action of $pi_1(X)$ on the fiber, then the image of $pi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer.
    $endgroup$
    – Hempelicious
    Dec 3 '18 at 4:44














1












1








1


1



$begingroup$


Assume you have a space $X$ and a homomorphism $r:pi_1Xto S_n$. Then $r$ defines a n-sheeted covering space $Y$ of $X$. My question is, can you immediatly determine if $Y$ is a normal covering using only $r$ (without computing $pi_1Ysubsetpi_1X $ and checking if it is a normal subgroup.



Example: $X=S^1vee S^1$, and let $a,b$ denote the two generators of $pi_1 X$. Look at the r defined via $amapsto (12), bmapsto(123).$ This gives rise to a three sheeted cover $Y$ over $X$. Is this cover normal?



Again, I can check it because in this case it is very easy to draw $Y$ and it is possible to calculate $pi_1Y$ by using Van Kampen. My question is - can you see if $Y$ is normal or not only by looking at $r$.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




Assume you have a space $X$ and a homomorphism $r:pi_1Xto S_n$. Then $r$ defines a n-sheeted covering space $Y$ of $X$. My question is, can you immediatly determine if $Y$ is a normal covering using only $r$ (without computing $pi_1Ysubsetpi_1X $ and checking if it is a normal subgroup.



Example: $X=S^1vee S^1$, and let $a,b$ denote the two generators of $pi_1 X$. Look at the r defined via $amapsto (12), bmapsto(123).$ This gives rise to a three sheeted cover $Y$ over $X$. Is this cover normal?



Again, I can check it because in this case it is very easy to draw $Y$ and it is possible to calculate $pi_1Y$ by using Van Kampen. My question is - can you see if $Y$ is normal or not only by looking at $r$.







algebraic-topology covering-spaces






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share|cite|improve this question










asked Dec 2 '18 at 17:56









Benny ZackBenny Zack

353213




353213












  • $begingroup$
    Isn't a covering normal precisely when the action on a fiber is transitive?
    $endgroup$
    – Hempelicious
    Dec 2 '18 at 19:17










  • $begingroup$
    It is when the deck transformations act transitevly. Our action is a bit different (For example this is nor the universal cover so $pi_1X$ is "larger" than $G(Y)$ so that $pi_1$ maybe acts transitevly but $G(Y)$ doesn't.
    $endgroup$
    – Benny Zack
    Dec 2 '18 at 19:19










  • $begingroup$
    Doesn't $r$ give you the action on a fiber?
    $endgroup$
    – Hempelicious
    Dec 2 '18 at 19:22










  • $begingroup$
    There are two, generally different, actions on a fiber. The first is the action of the deck transformation group $G(X)$, and the second is the action of the fundamental group $pi_1X$. A normal covering is a covering where the first action is transitive. I am given information about the second action.
    $endgroup$
    – Benny Zack
    Dec 2 '18 at 20:06








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    If you have the action of $pi_1(X)$ on the fiber, then the image of $pi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer.
    $endgroup$
    – Hempelicious
    Dec 3 '18 at 4:44


















  • $begingroup$
    Isn't a covering normal precisely when the action on a fiber is transitive?
    $endgroup$
    – Hempelicious
    Dec 2 '18 at 19:17










  • $begingroup$
    It is when the deck transformations act transitevly. Our action is a bit different (For example this is nor the universal cover so $pi_1X$ is "larger" than $G(Y)$ so that $pi_1$ maybe acts transitevly but $G(Y)$ doesn't.
    $endgroup$
    – Benny Zack
    Dec 2 '18 at 19:19










  • $begingroup$
    Doesn't $r$ give you the action on a fiber?
    $endgroup$
    – Hempelicious
    Dec 2 '18 at 19:22










  • $begingroup$
    There are two, generally different, actions on a fiber. The first is the action of the deck transformation group $G(X)$, and the second is the action of the fundamental group $pi_1X$. A normal covering is a covering where the first action is transitive. I am given information about the second action.
    $endgroup$
    – Benny Zack
    Dec 2 '18 at 20:06








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    If you have the action of $pi_1(X)$ on the fiber, then the image of $pi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer.
    $endgroup$
    – Hempelicious
    Dec 3 '18 at 4:44
















$begingroup$
Isn't a covering normal precisely when the action on a fiber is transitive?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:17




$begingroup$
Isn't a covering normal precisely when the action on a fiber is transitive?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:17












$begingroup$
It is when the deck transformations act transitevly. Our action is a bit different (For example this is nor the universal cover so $pi_1X$ is "larger" than $G(Y)$ so that $pi_1$ maybe acts transitevly but $G(Y)$ doesn't.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 19:19




$begingroup$
It is when the deck transformations act transitevly. Our action is a bit different (For example this is nor the universal cover so $pi_1X$ is "larger" than $G(Y)$ so that $pi_1$ maybe acts transitevly but $G(Y)$ doesn't.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 19:19












$begingroup$
Doesn't $r$ give you the action on a fiber?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:22




$begingroup$
Doesn't $r$ give you the action on a fiber?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:22












$begingroup$
There are two, generally different, actions on a fiber. The first is the action of the deck transformation group $G(X)$, and the second is the action of the fundamental group $pi_1X$. A normal covering is a covering where the first action is transitive. I am given information about the second action.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 20:06






$begingroup$
There are two, generally different, actions on a fiber. The first is the action of the deck transformation group $G(X)$, and the second is the action of the fundamental group $pi_1X$. A normal covering is a covering where the first action is transitive. I am given information about the second action.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 20:06






1




1




$begingroup$
If you have the action of $pi_1(X)$ on the fiber, then the image of $pi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer.
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 3 '18 at 4:44




$begingroup$
If you have the action of $pi_1(X)$ on the fiber, then the image of $pi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer.
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 3 '18 at 4:44










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

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1












$begingroup$

Let $p:Yrightarrow X$ be the covering. Then the orbits of the $pi_1(X)$ action (via $r$) correspond to the connected components of $Y$. So let's assume this action is transitive, so that $Y$ is connected [I don't know what normality would mean when $Y$ was disconnected].



Then $p_astpi_1(Y)lepi_1(X)$, and $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer, since the point stabilizer is precisely which loops lift to loops in $Y$.



So for $p_astpi_1(Y)$ to be normal, the point stabilizer of $rpi_1(X)$ must be normal. But then it stabilizes all points (since point stabilizers are conjugate), and so $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ must be the identity subgroup.



Thus, $p:Yrightarrow X$ is a normal covering precisely when the action of $pi_1(X)$ (via $r$) is regular. I guess that's one reason why a normal covering is also called regular.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    0












    $begingroup$

    Let $G=pi_1(X)$ and $H=p_*(pi_1(Y))$. The group $G$ acts on the set $G/H$ of cosets by left multiplication. Deck transformations of $Y$ correspond to $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$, which are functions $G/Hto G/H$ that commute with the $G$ action. The group $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$ is isomorphic to $N(H)/H$, where $N(H)$ is the normalizer of $H$ in $G$. (This automorphism group corresponds to the group of deck transformations of $Yto X$.)



    In your specific problem, we have $[G:H]=3$. The homomorphism $f:langle a,brangleto S_3$ given by $amapsto (1 2)$ and $bmapsto (1 2 3)$ corresponds to a group action $Gto operatorname{Bij}(G/H)$ through some identification of the set $G/H$ with the three-element set ${1,2,3}$, whatever $H$ might be. In any case, $H$ is normal iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)rvert=3$. That is, iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G({1,2,3})rvert=3$, with $G$ acting on ${1,2,3}$ via $f$.



    Suppose $h:{1,2,3}to{1,2,3}$ is such an automorphism. Then $ah(1)=h(a1)=h(2)$, and since this means $h(1),h(2)in {1,2}$, we deduce $h(3)=3$. Already this means there are at most two automorphisms, so $H$ is not normal.



    It is not clear if this is any better than constructing the covering space and seeing the lack of symmetry.






    share|cite|improve this answer









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      2 Answers
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      2 Answers
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      1












      $begingroup$

      Let $p:Yrightarrow X$ be the covering. Then the orbits of the $pi_1(X)$ action (via $r$) correspond to the connected components of $Y$. So let's assume this action is transitive, so that $Y$ is connected [I don't know what normality would mean when $Y$ was disconnected].



      Then $p_astpi_1(Y)lepi_1(X)$, and $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer, since the point stabilizer is precisely which loops lift to loops in $Y$.



      So for $p_astpi_1(Y)$ to be normal, the point stabilizer of $rpi_1(X)$ must be normal. But then it stabilizes all points (since point stabilizers are conjugate), and so $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ must be the identity subgroup.



      Thus, $p:Yrightarrow X$ is a normal covering precisely when the action of $pi_1(X)$ (via $r$) is regular. I guess that's one reason why a normal covering is also called regular.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$


















        1












        $begingroup$

        Let $p:Yrightarrow X$ be the covering. Then the orbits of the $pi_1(X)$ action (via $r$) correspond to the connected components of $Y$. So let's assume this action is transitive, so that $Y$ is connected [I don't know what normality would mean when $Y$ was disconnected].



        Then $p_astpi_1(Y)lepi_1(X)$, and $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer, since the point stabilizer is precisely which loops lift to loops in $Y$.



        So for $p_astpi_1(Y)$ to be normal, the point stabilizer of $rpi_1(X)$ must be normal. But then it stabilizes all points (since point stabilizers are conjugate), and so $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ must be the identity subgroup.



        Thus, $p:Yrightarrow X$ is a normal covering precisely when the action of $pi_1(X)$ (via $r$) is regular. I guess that's one reason why a normal covering is also called regular.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$
















          1












          1








          1





          $begingroup$

          Let $p:Yrightarrow X$ be the covering. Then the orbits of the $pi_1(X)$ action (via $r$) correspond to the connected components of $Y$. So let's assume this action is transitive, so that $Y$ is connected [I don't know what normality would mean when $Y$ was disconnected].



          Then $p_astpi_1(Y)lepi_1(X)$, and $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer, since the point stabilizer is precisely which loops lift to loops in $Y$.



          So for $p_astpi_1(Y)$ to be normal, the point stabilizer of $rpi_1(X)$ must be normal. But then it stabilizes all points (since point stabilizers are conjugate), and so $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ must be the identity subgroup.



          Thus, $p:Yrightarrow X$ is a normal covering precisely when the action of $pi_1(X)$ (via $r$) is regular. I guess that's one reason why a normal covering is also called regular.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          Let $p:Yrightarrow X$ be the covering. Then the orbits of the $pi_1(X)$ action (via $r$) correspond to the connected components of $Y$. So let's assume this action is transitive, so that $Y$ is connected [I don't know what normality would mean when $Y$ was disconnected].



          Then $p_astpi_1(Y)lepi_1(X)$, and $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer, since the point stabilizer is precisely which loops lift to loops in $Y$.



          So for $p_astpi_1(Y)$ to be normal, the point stabilizer of $rpi_1(X)$ must be normal. But then it stabilizes all points (since point stabilizers are conjugate), and so $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ must be the identity subgroup.



          Thus, $p:Yrightarrow X$ is a normal covering precisely when the action of $pi_1(X)$ (via $r$) is regular. I guess that's one reason why a normal covering is also called regular.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Dec 3 '18 at 15:45









          HempeliciousHempelicious

          142110




          142110























              0












              $begingroup$

              Let $G=pi_1(X)$ and $H=p_*(pi_1(Y))$. The group $G$ acts on the set $G/H$ of cosets by left multiplication. Deck transformations of $Y$ correspond to $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$, which are functions $G/Hto G/H$ that commute with the $G$ action. The group $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$ is isomorphic to $N(H)/H$, where $N(H)$ is the normalizer of $H$ in $G$. (This automorphism group corresponds to the group of deck transformations of $Yto X$.)



              In your specific problem, we have $[G:H]=3$. The homomorphism $f:langle a,brangleto S_3$ given by $amapsto (1 2)$ and $bmapsto (1 2 3)$ corresponds to a group action $Gto operatorname{Bij}(G/H)$ through some identification of the set $G/H$ with the three-element set ${1,2,3}$, whatever $H$ might be. In any case, $H$ is normal iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)rvert=3$. That is, iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G({1,2,3})rvert=3$, with $G$ acting on ${1,2,3}$ via $f$.



              Suppose $h:{1,2,3}to{1,2,3}$ is such an automorphism. Then $ah(1)=h(a1)=h(2)$, and since this means $h(1),h(2)in {1,2}$, we deduce $h(3)=3$. Already this means there are at most two automorphisms, so $H$ is not normal.



              It is not clear if this is any better than constructing the covering space and seeing the lack of symmetry.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                0












                $begingroup$

                Let $G=pi_1(X)$ and $H=p_*(pi_1(Y))$. The group $G$ acts on the set $G/H$ of cosets by left multiplication. Deck transformations of $Y$ correspond to $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$, which are functions $G/Hto G/H$ that commute with the $G$ action. The group $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$ is isomorphic to $N(H)/H$, where $N(H)$ is the normalizer of $H$ in $G$. (This automorphism group corresponds to the group of deck transformations of $Yto X$.)



                In your specific problem, we have $[G:H]=3$. The homomorphism $f:langle a,brangleto S_3$ given by $amapsto (1 2)$ and $bmapsto (1 2 3)$ corresponds to a group action $Gto operatorname{Bij}(G/H)$ through some identification of the set $G/H$ with the three-element set ${1,2,3}$, whatever $H$ might be. In any case, $H$ is normal iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)rvert=3$. That is, iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G({1,2,3})rvert=3$, with $G$ acting on ${1,2,3}$ via $f$.



                Suppose $h:{1,2,3}to{1,2,3}$ is such an automorphism. Then $ah(1)=h(a1)=h(2)$, and since this means $h(1),h(2)in {1,2}$, we deduce $h(3)=3$. Already this means there are at most two automorphisms, so $H$ is not normal.



                It is not clear if this is any better than constructing the covering space and seeing the lack of symmetry.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  Let $G=pi_1(X)$ and $H=p_*(pi_1(Y))$. The group $G$ acts on the set $G/H$ of cosets by left multiplication. Deck transformations of $Y$ correspond to $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$, which are functions $G/Hto G/H$ that commute with the $G$ action. The group $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$ is isomorphic to $N(H)/H$, where $N(H)$ is the normalizer of $H$ in $G$. (This automorphism group corresponds to the group of deck transformations of $Yto X$.)



                  In your specific problem, we have $[G:H]=3$. The homomorphism $f:langle a,brangleto S_3$ given by $amapsto (1 2)$ and $bmapsto (1 2 3)$ corresponds to a group action $Gto operatorname{Bij}(G/H)$ through some identification of the set $G/H$ with the three-element set ${1,2,3}$, whatever $H$ might be. In any case, $H$ is normal iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)rvert=3$. That is, iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G({1,2,3})rvert=3$, with $G$ acting on ${1,2,3}$ via $f$.



                  Suppose $h:{1,2,3}to{1,2,3}$ is such an automorphism. Then $ah(1)=h(a1)=h(2)$, and since this means $h(1),h(2)in {1,2}$, we deduce $h(3)=3$. Already this means there are at most two automorphisms, so $H$ is not normal.



                  It is not clear if this is any better than constructing the covering space and seeing the lack of symmetry.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  Let $G=pi_1(X)$ and $H=p_*(pi_1(Y))$. The group $G$ acts on the set $G/H$ of cosets by left multiplication. Deck transformations of $Y$ correspond to $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$, which are functions $G/Hto G/H$ that commute with the $G$ action. The group $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$ is isomorphic to $N(H)/H$, where $N(H)$ is the normalizer of $H$ in $G$. (This automorphism group corresponds to the group of deck transformations of $Yto X$.)



                  In your specific problem, we have $[G:H]=3$. The homomorphism $f:langle a,brangleto S_3$ given by $amapsto (1 2)$ and $bmapsto (1 2 3)$ corresponds to a group action $Gto operatorname{Bij}(G/H)$ through some identification of the set $G/H$ with the three-element set ${1,2,3}$, whatever $H$ might be. In any case, $H$ is normal iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)rvert=3$. That is, iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G({1,2,3})rvert=3$, with $G$ acting on ${1,2,3}$ via $f$.



                  Suppose $h:{1,2,3}to{1,2,3}$ is such an automorphism. Then $ah(1)=h(a1)=h(2)$, and since this means $h(1),h(2)in {1,2}$, we deduce $h(3)=3$. Already this means there are at most two automorphisms, so $H$ is not normal.



                  It is not clear if this is any better than constructing the covering space and seeing the lack of symmetry.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Dec 3 '18 at 21:33









                  Kyle MillerKyle Miller

                  8,482928




                  8,482928






























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