How to check if a cover is normal given the action on a fiber.
$begingroup$
Assume you have a space $X$ and a homomorphism $r:pi_1Xto S_n$. Then $r$ defines a n-sheeted covering space $Y$ of $X$. My question is, can you immediatly determine if $Y$ is a normal covering using only $r$ (without computing $pi_1Ysubsetpi_1X $ and checking if it is a normal subgroup.
Example: $X=S^1vee S^1$, and let $a,b$ denote the two generators of $pi_1 X$. Look at the r defined via $amapsto (12), bmapsto(123).$ This gives rise to a three sheeted cover $Y$ over $X$. Is this cover normal?
Again, I can check it because in this case it is very easy to draw $Y$ and it is possible to calculate $pi_1Y$ by using Van Kampen. My question is - can you see if $Y$ is normal or not only by looking at $r$.
algebraic-topology covering-spaces
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Assume you have a space $X$ and a homomorphism $r:pi_1Xto S_n$. Then $r$ defines a n-sheeted covering space $Y$ of $X$. My question is, can you immediatly determine if $Y$ is a normal covering using only $r$ (without computing $pi_1Ysubsetpi_1X $ and checking if it is a normal subgroup.
Example: $X=S^1vee S^1$, and let $a,b$ denote the two generators of $pi_1 X$. Look at the r defined via $amapsto (12), bmapsto(123).$ This gives rise to a three sheeted cover $Y$ over $X$. Is this cover normal?
Again, I can check it because in this case it is very easy to draw $Y$ and it is possible to calculate $pi_1Y$ by using Van Kampen. My question is - can you see if $Y$ is normal or not only by looking at $r$.
algebraic-topology covering-spaces
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Isn't a covering normal precisely when the action on a fiber is transitive?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:17
$begingroup$
It is when the deck transformations act transitevly. Our action is a bit different (For example this is nor the universal cover so $pi_1X$ is "larger" than $G(Y)$ so that $pi_1$ maybe acts transitevly but $G(Y)$ doesn't.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 19:19
$begingroup$
Doesn't $r$ give you the action on a fiber?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:22
$begingroup$
There are two, generally different, actions on a fiber. The first is the action of the deck transformation group $G(X)$, and the second is the action of the fundamental group $pi_1X$. A normal covering is a covering where the first action is transitive. I am given information about the second action.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 20:06
1
$begingroup$
If you have the action of $pi_1(X)$ on the fiber, then the image of $pi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer.
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 3 '18 at 4:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Assume you have a space $X$ and a homomorphism $r:pi_1Xto S_n$. Then $r$ defines a n-sheeted covering space $Y$ of $X$. My question is, can you immediatly determine if $Y$ is a normal covering using only $r$ (without computing $pi_1Ysubsetpi_1X $ and checking if it is a normal subgroup.
Example: $X=S^1vee S^1$, and let $a,b$ denote the two generators of $pi_1 X$. Look at the r defined via $amapsto (12), bmapsto(123).$ This gives rise to a three sheeted cover $Y$ over $X$. Is this cover normal?
Again, I can check it because in this case it is very easy to draw $Y$ and it is possible to calculate $pi_1Y$ by using Van Kampen. My question is - can you see if $Y$ is normal or not only by looking at $r$.
algebraic-topology covering-spaces
$endgroup$
Assume you have a space $X$ and a homomorphism $r:pi_1Xto S_n$. Then $r$ defines a n-sheeted covering space $Y$ of $X$. My question is, can you immediatly determine if $Y$ is a normal covering using only $r$ (without computing $pi_1Ysubsetpi_1X $ and checking if it is a normal subgroup.
Example: $X=S^1vee S^1$, and let $a,b$ denote the two generators of $pi_1 X$. Look at the r defined via $amapsto (12), bmapsto(123).$ This gives rise to a three sheeted cover $Y$ over $X$. Is this cover normal?
Again, I can check it because in this case it is very easy to draw $Y$ and it is possible to calculate $pi_1Y$ by using Van Kampen. My question is - can you see if $Y$ is normal or not only by looking at $r$.
algebraic-topology covering-spaces
algebraic-topology covering-spaces
asked Dec 2 '18 at 17:56
Benny ZackBenny Zack
353213
353213
$begingroup$
Isn't a covering normal precisely when the action on a fiber is transitive?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:17
$begingroup$
It is when the deck transformations act transitevly. Our action is a bit different (For example this is nor the universal cover so $pi_1X$ is "larger" than $G(Y)$ so that $pi_1$ maybe acts transitevly but $G(Y)$ doesn't.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 19:19
$begingroup$
Doesn't $r$ give you the action on a fiber?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:22
$begingroup$
There are two, generally different, actions on a fiber. The first is the action of the deck transformation group $G(X)$, and the second is the action of the fundamental group $pi_1X$. A normal covering is a covering where the first action is transitive. I am given information about the second action.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 20:06
1
$begingroup$
If you have the action of $pi_1(X)$ on the fiber, then the image of $pi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer.
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 3 '18 at 4:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Isn't a covering normal precisely when the action on a fiber is transitive?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:17
$begingroup$
It is when the deck transformations act transitevly. Our action is a bit different (For example this is nor the universal cover so $pi_1X$ is "larger" than $G(Y)$ so that $pi_1$ maybe acts transitevly but $G(Y)$ doesn't.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 19:19
$begingroup$
Doesn't $r$ give you the action on a fiber?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:22
$begingroup$
There are two, generally different, actions on a fiber. The first is the action of the deck transformation group $G(X)$, and the second is the action of the fundamental group $pi_1X$. A normal covering is a covering where the first action is transitive. I am given information about the second action.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 20:06
1
$begingroup$
If you have the action of $pi_1(X)$ on the fiber, then the image of $pi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer.
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 3 '18 at 4:44
$begingroup$
Isn't a covering normal precisely when the action on a fiber is transitive?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:17
$begingroup$
Isn't a covering normal precisely when the action on a fiber is transitive?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:17
$begingroup$
It is when the deck transformations act transitevly. Our action is a bit different (For example this is nor the universal cover so $pi_1X$ is "larger" than $G(Y)$ so that $pi_1$ maybe acts transitevly but $G(Y)$ doesn't.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 19:19
$begingroup$
It is when the deck transformations act transitevly. Our action is a bit different (For example this is nor the universal cover so $pi_1X$ is "larger" than $G(Y)$ so that $pi_1$ maybe acts transitevly but $G(Y)$ doesn't.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 19:19
$begingroup$
Doesn't $r$ give you the action on a fiber?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:22
$begingroup$
Doesn't $r$ give you the action on a fiber?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:22
$begingroup$
There are two, generally different, actions on a fiber. The first is the action of the deck transformation group $G(X)$, and the second is the action of the fundamental group $pi_1X$. A normal covering is a covering where the first action is transitive. I am given information about the second action.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 20:06
$begingroup$
There are two, generally different, actions on a fiber. The first is the action of the deck transformation group $G(X)$, and the second is the action of the fundamental group $pi_1X$. A normal covering is a covering where the first action is transitive. I am given information about the second action.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 20:06
1
1
$begingroup$
If you have the action of $pi_1(X)$ on the fiber, then the image of $pi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer.
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 3 '18 at 4:44
$begingroup$
If you have the action of $pi_1(X)$ on the fiber, then the image of $pi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer.
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 3 '18 at 4:44
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
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oldest
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$begingroup$
Let $p:Yrightarrow X$ be the covering. Then the orbits of the $pi_1(X)$ action (via $r$) correspond to the connected components of $Y$. So let's assume this action is transitive, so that $Y$ is connected [I don't know what normality would mean when $Y$ was disconnected].
Then $p_astpi_1(Y)lepi_1(X)$, and $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer, since the point stabilizer is precisely which loops lift to loops in $Y$.
So for $p_astpi_1(Y)$ to be normal, the point stabilizer of $rpi_1(X)$ must be normal. But then it stabilizes all points (since point stabilizers are conjugate), and so $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ must be the identity subgroup.
Thus, $p:Yrightarrow X$ is a normal covering precisely when the action of $pi_1(X)$ (via $r$) is regular. I guess that's one reason why a normal covering is also called regular.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $G=pi_1(X)$ and $H=p_*(pi_1(Y))$. The group $G$ acts on the set $G/H$ of cosets by left multiplication. Deck transformations of $Y$ correspond to $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$, which are functions $G/Hto G/H$ that commute with the $G$ action. The group $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$ is isomorphic to $N(H)/H$, where $N(H)$ is the normalizer of $H$ in $G$. (This automorphism group corresponds to the group of deck transformations of $Yto X$.)
In your specific problem, we have $[G:H]=3$. The homomorphism $f:langle a,brangleto S_3$ given by $amapsto (1 2)$ and $bmapsto (1 2 3)$ corresponds to a group action $Gto operatorname{Bij}(G/H)$ through some identification of the set $G/H$ with the three-element set ${1,2,3}$, whatever $H$ might be. In any case, $H$ is normal iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)rvert=3$. That is, iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G({1,2,3})rvert=3$, with $G$ acting on ${1,2,3}$ via $f$.
Suppose $h:{1,2,3}to{1,2,3}$ is such an automorphism. Then $ah(1)=h(a1)=h(2)$, and since this means $h(1),h(2)in {1,2}$, we deduce $h(3)=3$. Already this means there are at most two automorphisms, so $H$ is not normal.
It is not clear if this is any better than constructing the covering space and seeing the lack of symmetry.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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$begingroup$
Let $p:Yrightarrow X$ be the covering. Then the orbits of the $pi_1(X)$ action (via $r$) correspond to the connected components of $Y$. So let's assume this action is transitive, so that $Y$ is connected [I don't know what normality would mean when $Y$ was disconnected].
Then $p_astpi_1(Y)lepi_1(X)$, and $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer, since the point stabilizer is precisely which loops lift to loops in $Y$.
So for $p_astpi_1(Y)$ to be normal, the point stabilizer of $rpi_1(X)$ must be normal. But then it stabilizes all points (since point stabilizers are conjugate), and so $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ must be the identity subgroup.
Thus, $p:Yrightarrow X$ is a normal covering precisely when the action of $pi_1(X)$ (via $r$) is regular. I guess that's one reason why a normal covering is also called regular.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $p:Yrightarrow X$ be the covering. Then the orbits of the $pi_1(X)$ action (via $r$) correspond to the connected components of $Y$. So let's assume this action is transitive, so that $Y$ is connected [I don't know what normality would mean when $Y$ was disconnected].
Then $p_astpi_1(Y)lepi_1(X)$, and $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer, since the point stabilizer is precisely which loops lift to loops in $Y$.
So for $p_astpi_1(Y)$ to be normal, the point stabilizer of $rpi_1(X)$ must be normal. But then it stabilizes all points (since point stabilizers are conjugate), and so $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ must be the identity subgroup.
Thus, $p:Yrightarrow X$ is a normal covering precisely when the action of $pi_1(X)$ (via $r$) is regular. I guess that's one reason why a normal covering is also called regular.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $p:Yrightarrow X$ be the covering. Then the orbits of the $pi_1(X)$ action (via $r$) correspond to the connected components of $Y$. So let's assume this action is transitive, so that $Y$ is connected [I don't know what normality would mean when $Y$ was disconnected].
Then $p_astpi_1(Y)lepi_1(X)$, and $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer, since the point stabilizer is precisely which loops lift to loops in $Y$.
So for $p_astpi_1(Y)$ to be normal, the point stabilizer of $rpi_1(X)$ must be normal. But then it stabilizes all points (since point stabilizers are conjugate), and so $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ must be the identity subgroup.
Thus, $p:Yrightarrow X$ is a normal covering precisely when the action of $pi_1(X)$ (via $r$) is regular. I guess that's one reason why a normal covering is also called regular.
$endgroup$
Let $p:Yrightarrow X$ be the covering. Then the orbits of the $pi_1(X)$ action (via $r$) correspond to the connected components of $Y$. So let's assume this action is transitive, so that $Y$ is connected [I don't know what normality would mean when $Y$ was disconnected].
Then $p_astpi_1(Y)lepi_1(X)$, and $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer, since the point stabilizer is precisely which loops lift to loops in $Y$.
So for $p_astpi_1(Y)$ to be normal, the point stabilizer of $rpi_1(X)$ must be normal. But then it stabilizes all points (since point stabilizers are conjugate), and so $rp_astpi_1(Y)$ must be the identity subgroup.
Thus, $p:Yrightarrow X$ is a normal covering precisely when the action of $pi_1(X)$ (via $r$) is regular. I guess that's one reason why a normal covering is also called regular.
answered Dec 3 '18 at 15:45
HempeliciousHempelicious
142110
142110
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $G=pi_1(X)$ and $H=p_*(pi_1(Y))$. The group $G$ acts on the set $G/H$ of cosets by left multiplication. Deck transformations of $Y$ correspond to $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$, which are functions $G/Hto G/H$ that commute with the $G$ action. The group $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$ is isomorphic to $N(H)/H$, where $N(H)$ is the normalizer of $H$ in $G$. (This automorphism group corresponds to the group of deck transformations of $Yto X$.)
In your specific problem, we have $[G:H]=3$. The homomorphism $f:langle a,brangleto S_3$ given by $amapsto (1 2)$ and $bmapsto (1 2 3)$ corresponds to a group action $Gto operatorname{Bij}(G/H)$ through some identification of the set $G/H$ with the three-element set ${1,2,3}$, whatever $H$ might be. In any case, $H$ is normal iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)rvert=3$. That is, iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G({1,2,3})rvert=3$, with $G$ acting on ${1,2,3}$ via $f$.
Suppose $h:{1,2,3}to{1,2,3}$ is such an automorphism. Then $ah(1)=h(a1)=h(2)$, and since this means $h(1),h(2)in {1,2}$, we deduce $h(3)=3$. Already this means there are at most two automorphisms, so $H$ is not normal.
It is not clear if this is any better than constructing the covering space and seeing the lack of symmetry.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $G=pi_1(X)$ and $H=p_*(pi_1(Y))$. The group $G$ acts on the set $G/H$ of cosets by left multiplication. Deck transformations of $Y$ correspond to $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$, which are functions $G/Hto G/H$ that commute with the $G$ action. The group $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$ is isomorphic to $N(H)/H$, where $N(H)$ is the normalizer of $H$ in $G$. (This automorphism group corresponds to the group of deck transformations of $Yto X$.)
In your specific problem, we have $[G:H]=3$. The homomorphism $f:langle a,brangleto S_3$ given by $amapsto (1 2)$ and $bmapsto (1 2 3)$ corresponds to a group action $Gto operatorname{Bij}(G/H)$ through some identification of the set $G/H$ with the three-element set ${1,2,3}$, whatever $H$ might be. In any case, $H$ is normal iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)rvert=3$. That is, iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G({1,2,3})rvert=3$, with $G$ acting on ${1,2,3}$ via $f$.
Suppose $h:{1,2,3}to{1,2,3}$ is such an automorphism. Then $ah(1)=h(a1)=h(2)$, and since this means $h(1),h(2)in {1,2}$, we deduce $h(3)=3$. Already this means there are at most two automorphisms, so $H$ is not normal.
It is not clear if this is any better than constructing the covering space and seeing the lack of symmetry.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $G=pi_1(X)$ and $H=p_*(pi_1(Y))$. The group $G$ acts on the set $G/H$ of cosets by left multiplication. Deck transformations of $Y$ correspond to $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$, which are functions $G/Hto G/H$ that commute with the $G$ action. The group $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$ is isomorphic to $N(H)/H$, where $N(H)$ is the normalizer of $H$ in $G$. (This automorphism group corresponds to the group of deck transformations of $Yto X$.)
In your specific problem, we have $[G:H]=3$. The homomorphism $f:langle a,brangleto S_3$ given by $amapsto (1 2)$ and $bmapsto (1 2 3)$ corresponds to a group action $Gto operatorname{Bij}(G/H)$ through some identification of the set $G/H$ with the three-element set ${1,2,3}$, whatever $H$ might be. In any case, $H$ is normal iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)rvert=3$. That is, iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G({1,2,3})rvert=3$, with $G$ acting on ${1,2,3}$ via $f$.
Suppose $h:{1,2,3}to{1,2,3}$ is such an automorphism. Then $ah(1)=h(a1)=h(2)$, and since this means $h(1),h(2)in {1,2}$, we deduce $h(3)=3$. Already this means there are at most two automorphisms, so $H$ is not normal.
It is not clear if this is any better than constructing the covering space and seeing the lack of symmetry.
$endgroup$
Let $G=pi_1(X)$ and $H=p_*(pi_1(Y))$. The group $G$ acts on the set $G/H$ of cosets by left multiplication. Deck transformations of $Y$ correspond to $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$, which are functions $G/Hto G/H$ that commute with the $G$ action. The group $operatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)$ is isomorphic to $N(H)/H$, where $N(H)$ is the normalizer of $H$ in $G$. (This automorphism group corresponds to the group of deck transformations of $Yto X$.)
In your specific problem, we have $[G:H]=3$. The homomorphism $f:langle a,brangleto S_3$ given by $amapsto (1 2)$ and $bmapsto (1 2 3)$ corresponds to a group action $Gto operatorname{Bij}(G/H)$ through some identification of the set $G/H$ with the three-element set ${1,2,3}$, whatever $H$ might be. In any case, $H$ is normal iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G(G/H)rvert=3$. That is, iff $lvertoperatorname{Aut}_G({1,2,3})rvert=3$, with $G$ acting on ${1,2,3}$ via $f$.
Suppose $h:{1,2,3}to{1,2,3}$ is such an automorphism. Then $ah(1)=h(a1)=h(2)$, and since this means $h(1),h(2)in {1,2}$, we deduce $h(3)=3$. Already this means there are at most two automorphisms, so $H$ is not normal.
It is not clear if this is any better than constructing the covering space and seeing the lack of symmetry.
answered Dec 3 '18 at 21:33
Kyle MillerKyle Miller
8,482928
8,482928
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Isn't a covering normal precisely when the action on a fiber is transitive?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:17
$begingroup$
It is when the deck transformations act transitevly. Our action is a bit different (For example this is nor the universal cover so $pi_1X$ is "larger" than $G(Y)$ so that $pi_1$ maybe acts transitevly but $G(Y)$ doesn't.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 19:19
$begingroup$
Doesn't $r$ give you the action on a fiber?
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 2 '18 at 19:22
$begingroup$
There are two, generally different, actions on a fiber. The first is the action of the deck transformation group $G(X)$, and the second is the action of the fundamental group $pi_1X$. A normal covering is a covering where the first action is transitive. I am given information about the second action.
$endgroup$
– Benny Zack
Dec 2 '18 at 20:06
1
$begingroup$
If you have the action of $pi_1(X)$ on the fiber, then the image of $pi_1(Y)$ is a point stabilizer.
$endgroup$
– Hempelicious
Dec 3 '18 at 4:44