Should I travel through freezing areas with hot or cold water in my RV tank?











up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1












This question is specific to the hot water tank in an RV. In my case it is 6 gallons, propane heated and insulated with the only exterior contact the access panel, as seen in most standard RV's in the US.



Hard as it is to believe hot water can actually freeze faster than cold water. How it happens is not fully understood, but undeniable it does happen. See related posts on physics.stackexchange What is the status of Mpemba effect investigations? & Hot water freezing faster than cold water




Hot water can in fact freeze faster than cold water for a wide range of experimental conditions. This phenomenon is extremely counterintuitive, and surprising even to most scientists, but it is in fact real.




Source



The RV is currently winterized and located outside in temperatures that are freezing and below. I am leaving from a frozen area, traveling hundreds of miles through freezing areas, and arriving in a warm area (Florida USA). I must flush the fresh water system and top off before departure. Which means my hot water tank will be full. I can either leave it unheated with cold tap water (from my home, temp unknown but not ice) OR I can start the water heater and bring it up to temp before leaving.



All the plumbing and the fresh water holding tank are inside the RV. We will be stopping occasionally and heating the inside of the RV, so no concerns about the pipes or fresh water tank.



Driving with propane heating on (air or water) is possibly illegal and definitely unsafe.



Should I travel through freezing areas with hot or cold water in my RV hot water tank?










share|improve this question




















  • 3




    The whole freezing-faster thing, which is still debated, is based on losing water (and enthalpy) to evaporation, meaning you have to freeze less water in the end. It seems unlikely that you are losing a lot of water through evaporation from the tank.
    – Jon Custer
    Dec 7 at 18:51










  • @JonCuster I am not an expert, but I don't believe that evaporation has been shown as conclusively related.
    – James Jenkins
    Dec 7 at 18:59






  • 2




    The Mpemba effect is pretty weak whatever the cause (a major reason why it's so hard to investigate) so in comparison to the variability in outside temperature it's insignificant.
    – Chris H
    Dec 7 at 19:11










  • See physics.stackexchange.com/questions/32989/…
    – Jon Custer
    Dec 7 at 19:14






  • 1




    To be honest I'd ignore all the studies that are careful to avoid vibration, because you'll have plenty of that. Most of the theories involve some sort of stratification or other stable state that loses heat fast, and driving will cause mixing. Also avoid any results that started by boiling the water because that affects what's dissolved in it, and you won't be boiling.
    – Chris H
    Dec 7 at 20:33















up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1












This question is specific to the hot water tank in an RV. In my case it is 6 gallons, propane heated and insulated with the only exterior contact the access panel, as seen in most standard RV's in the US.



Hard as it is to believe hot water can actually freeze faster than cold water. How it happens is not fully understood, but undeniable it does happen. See related posts on physics.stackexchange What is the status of Mpemba effect investigations? & Hot water freezing faster than cold water




Hot water can in fact freeze faster than cold water for a wide range of experimental conditions. This phenomenon is extremely counterintuitive, and surprising even to most scientists, but it is in fact real.




Source



The RV is currently winterized and located outside in temperatures that are freezing and below. I am leaving from a frozen area, traveling hundreds of miles through freezing areas, and arriving in a warm area (Florida USA). I must flush the fresh water system and top off before departure. Which means my hot water tank will be full. I can either leave it unheated with cold tap water (from my home, temp unknown but not ice) OR I can start the water heater and bring it up to temp before leaving.



All the plumbing and the fresh water holding tank are inside the RV. We will be stopping occasionally and heating the inside of the RV, so no concerns about the pipes or fresh water tank.



Driving with propane heating on (air or water) is possibly illegal and definitely unsafe.



Should I travel through freezing areas with hot or cold water in my RV hot water tank?










share|improve this question




















  • 3




    The whole freezing-faster thing, which is still debated, is based on losing water (and enthalpy) to evaporation, meaning you have to freeze less water in the end. It seems unlikely that you are losing a lot of water through evaporation from the tank.
    – Jon Custer
    Dec 7 at 18:51










  • @JonCuster I am not an expert, but I don't believe that evaporation has been shown as conclusively related.
    – James Jenkins
    Dec 7 at 18:59






  • 2




    The Mpemba effect is pretty weak whatever the cause (a major reason why it's so hard to investigate) so in comparison to the variability in outside temperature it's insignificant.
    – Chris H
    Dec 7 at 19:11










  • See physics.stackexchange.com/questions/32989/…
    – Jon Custer
    Dec 7 at 19:14






  • 1




    To be honest I'd ignore all the studies that are careful to avoid vibration, because you'll have plenty of that. Most of the theories involve some sort of stratification or other stable state that loses heat fast, and driving will cause mixing. Also avoid any results that started by boiling the water because that affects what's dissolved in it, and you won't be boiling.
    – Chris H
    Dec 7 at 20:33













up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1






1





This question is specific to the hot water tank in an RV. In my case it is 6 gallons, propane heated and insulated with the only exterior contact the access panel, as seen in most standard RV's in the US.



Hard as it is to believe hot water can actually freeze faster than cold water. How it happens is not fully understood, but undeniable it does happen. See related posts on physics.stackexchange What is the status of Mpemba effect investigations? & Hot water freezing faster than cold water




Hot water can in fact freeze faster than cold water for a wide range of experimental conditions. This phenomenon is extremely counterintuitive, and surprising even to most scientists, but it is in fact real.




Source



The RV is currently winterized and located outside in temperatures that are freezing and below. I am leaving from a frozen area, traveling hundreds of miles through freezing areas, and arriving in a warm area (Florida USA). I must flush the fresh water system and top off before departure. Which means my hot water tank will be full. I can either leave it unheated with cold tap water (from my home, temp unknown but not ice) OR I can start the water heater and bring it up to temp before leaving.



All the plumbing and the fresh water holding tank are inside the RV. We will be stopping occasionally and heating the inside of the RV, so no concerns about the pipes or fresh water tank.



Driving with propane heating on (air or water) is possibly illegal and definitely unsafe.



Should I travel through freezing areas with hot or cold water in my RV hot water tank?










share|improve this question















This question is specific to the hot water tank in an RV. In my case it is 6 gallons, propane heated and insulated with the only exterior contact the access panel, as seen in most standard RV's in the US.



Hard as it is to believe hot water can actually freeze faster than cold water. How it happens is not fully understood, but undeniable it does happen. See related posts on physics.stackexchange What is the status of Mpemba effect investigations? & Hot water freezing faster than cold water




Hot water can in fact freeze faster than cold water for a wide range of experimental conditions. This phenomenon is extremely counterintuitive, and surprising even to most scientists, but it is in fact real.




Source



The RV is currently winterized and located outside in temperatures that are freezing and below. I am leaving from a frozen area, traveling hundreds of miles through freezing areas, and arriving in a warm area (Florida USA). I must flush the fresh water system and top off before departure. Which means my hot water tank will be full. I can either leave it unheated with cold tap water (from my home, temp unknown but not ice) OR I can start the water heater and bring it up to temp before leaving.



All the plumbing and the fresh water holding tank are inside the RV. We will be stopping occasionally and heating the inside of the RV, so no concerns about the pipes or fresh water tank.



Driving with propane heating on (air or water) is possibly illegal and definitely unsafe.



Should I travel through freezing areas with hot or cold water in my RV hot water tank?







safety water temperature rv






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Dec 7 at 21:35









Charlie Brumbaugh

45.1k15125254




45.1k15125254










asked Dec 7 at 18:39









James Jenkins

17.8k1064162




17.8k1064162








  • 3




    The whole freezing-faster thing, which is still debated, is based on losing water (and enthalpy) to evaporation, meaning you have to freeze less water in the end. It seems unlikely that you are losing a lot of water through evaporation from the tank.
    – Jon Custer
    Dec 7 at 18:51










  • @JonCuster I am not an expert, but I don't believe that evaporation has been shown as conclusively related.
    – James Jenkins
    Dec 7 at 18:59






  • 2




    The Mpemba effect is pretty weak whatever the cause (a major reason why it's so hard to investigate) so in comparison to the variability in outside temperature it's insignificant.
    – Chris H
    Dec 7 at 19:11










  • See physics.stackexchange.com/questions/32989/…
    – Jon Custer
    Dec 7 at 19:14






  • 1




    To be honest I'd ignore all the studies that are careful to avoid vibration, because you'll have plenty of that. Most of the theories involve some sort of stratification or other stable state that loses heat fast, and driving will cause mixing. Also avoid any results that started by boiling the water because that affects what's dissolved in it, and you won't be boiling.
    – Chris H
    Dec 7 at 20:33














  • 3




    The whole freezing-faster thing, which is still debated, is based on losing water (and enthalpy) to evaporation, meaning you have to freeze less water in the end. It seems unlikely that you are losing a lot of water through evaporation from the tank.
    – Jon Custer
    Dec 7 at 18:51










  • @JonCuster I am not an expert, but I don't believe that evaporation has been shown as conclusively related.
    – James Jenkins
    Dec 7 at 18:59






  • 2




    The Mpemba effect is pretty weak whatever the cause (a major reason why it's so hard to investigate) so in comparison to the variability in outside temperature it's insignificant.
    – Chris H
    Dec 7 at 19:11










  • See physics.stackexchange.com/questions/32989/…
    – Jon Custer
    Dec 7 at 19:14






  • 1




    To be honest I'd ignore all the studies that are careful to avoid vibration, because you'll have plenty of that. Most of the theories involve some sort of stratification or other stable state that loses heat fast, and driving will cause mixing. Also avoid any results that started by boiling the water because that affects what's dissolved in it, and you won't be boiling.
    – Chris H
    Dec 7 at 20:33








3




3




The whole freezing-faster thing, which is still debated, is based on losing water (and enthalpy) to evaporation, meaning you have to freeze less water in the end. It seems unlikely that you are losing a lot of water through evaporation from the tank.
– Jon Custer
Dec 7 at 18:51




The whole freezing-faster thing, which is still debated, is based on losing water (and enthalpy) to evaporation, meaning you have to freeze less water in the end. It seems unlikely that you are losing a lot of water through evaporation from the tank.
– Jon Custer
Dec 7 at 18:51












@JonCuster I am not an expert, but I don't believe that evaporation has been shown as conclusively related.
– James Jenkins
Dec 7 at 18:59




@JonCuster I am not an expert, but I don't believe that evaporation has been shown as conclusively related.
– James Jenkins
Dec 7 at 18:59




2




2




The Mpemba effect is pretty weak whatever the cause (a major reason why it's so hard to investigate) so in comparison to the variability in outside temperature it's insignificant.
– Chris H
Dec 7 at 19:11




The Mpemba effect is pretty weak whatever the cause (a major reason why it's so hard to investigate) so in comparison to the variability in outside temperature it's insignificant.
– Chris H
Dec 7 at 19:11












See physics.stackexchange.com/questions/32989/…
– Jon Custer
Dec 7 at 19:14




See physics.stackexchange.com/questions/32989/…
– Jon Custer
Dec 7 at 19:14




1




1




To be honest I'd ignore all the studies that are careful to avoid vibration, because you'll have plenty of that. Most of the theories involve some sort of stratification or other stable state that loses heat fast, and driving will cause mixing. Also avoid any results that started by boiling the water because that affects what's dissolved in it, and you won't be boiling.
– Chris H
Dec 7 at 20:33




To be honest I'd ignore all the studies that are careful to avoid vibration, because you'll have plenty of that. Most of the theories involve some sort of stratification or other stable state that loses heat fast, and driving will cause mixing. Also avoid any results that started by boiling the water because that affects what's dissolved in it, and you won't be boiling.
– Chris H
Dec 7 at 20:33










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
3
down vote



accepted










Ideally the hot water tank should be plumbed in a manner in which it can be drained without affecting the rest of the system. Typically this means either nothing comes out of the hot water taps when it is bypassed or cold water does. Your best bet would be to flush the system at home, then drain the hot water tank, and then drive with an empty hot water tank. If you need hot water while traveling, you can either fill the tank, heat it, use what you need and then drain the system. While this wastes water and propane it will prevent freezing. The other option is to periodically stop and reheat the water. A hot water tank is pretty well insulated and the water will not require frequent reheating.






share|improve this answer




























    up vote
    2
    down vote













    it doesn't matter, your pipes will freeze long before the tanks will. At best the Mpemba effect buys you another hour before freezing sets in, however your pipes will simply not take an hour to freeze in freezing temps, so the effect will be very minimal. The solution for long duration freezing temps is to install a re-circulator pump, if your RV is too old to have a battery heated water tank. Another option is to wrap the pipe in heat tape and insulation.






    share|improve this answer




























      up vote
      2
      down vote













      A lot depends on how the water system in your RV works. Some RV's really aren't made for winter use. Others are designed from square one to be usable at cold temps. These will have heat tapes on the plumbing, well insulated water and sewage storage tanks, and drain systems that are easy to access.



      As others have mentioned, the pipes are the first things to freeze. But if you have taps where opening the tap starts a pump, then they may be set up that water drains back into the tank when you shut the tap.



      You also need to worry about traps in your water disposal system and the sewage tank freezing.



      Bottom line: The hot water tank is the least of your worries.






      share|improve this answer




























        up vote
        1
        down vote













        This seems like a contradiction, if you are worried about freezing, then it would be better not to have any water in the tank/pipes where it could freeze and cause problems, and if not then it really doesn't matter whether or not it was hot or cold to start with.



        Also, as long as the journey is, it probably won't matter as the hot water will cool down to the same temperature as the cold tap water anyways.






        share|improve this answer





















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          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

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          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes








          up vote
          3
          down vote



          accepted










          Ideally the hot water tank should be plumbed in a manner in which it can be drained without affecting the rest of the system. Typically this means either nothing comes out of the hot water taps when it is bypassed or cold water does. Your best bet would be to flush the system at home, then drain the hot water tank, and then drive with an empty hot water tank. If you need hot water while traveling, you can either fill the tank, heat it, use what you need and then drain the system. While this wastes water and propane it will prevent freezing. The other option is to periodically stop and reheat the water. A hot water tank is pretty well insulated and the water will not require frequent reheating.






          share|improve this answer

























            up vote
            3
            down vote



            accepted










            Ideally the hot water tank should be plumbed in a manner in which it can be drained without affecting the rest of the system. Typically this means either nothing comes out of the hot water taps when it is bypassed or cold water does. Your best bet would be to flush the system at home, then drain the hot water tank, and then drive with an empty hot water tank. If you need hot water while traveling, you can either fill the tank, heat it, use what you need and then drain the system. While this wastes water and propane it will prevent freezing. The other option is to periodically stop and reheat the water. A hot water tank is pretty well insulated and the water will not require frequent reheating.






            share|improve this answer























              up vote
              3
              down vote



              accepted







              up vote
              3
              down vote



              accepted






              Ideally the hot water tank should be plumbed in a manner in which it can be drained without affecting the rest of the system. Typically this means either nothing comes out of the hot water taps when it is bypassed or cold water does. Your best bet would be to flush the system at home, then drain the hot water tank, and then drive with an empty hot water tank. If you need hot water while traveling, you can either fill the tank, heat it, use what you need and then drain the system. While this wastes water and propane it will prevent freezing. The other option is to periodically stop and reheat the water. A hot water tank is pretty well insulated and the water will not require frequent reheating.






              share|improve this answer












              Ideally the hot water tank should be plumbed in a manner in which it can be drained without affecting the rest of the system. Typically this means either nothing comes out of the hot water taps when it is bypassed or cold water does. Your best bet would be to flush the system at home, then drain the hot water tank, and then drive with an empty hot water tank. If you need hot water while traveling, you can either fill the tank, heat it, use what you need and then drain the system. While this wastes water and propane it will prevent freezing. The other option is to periodically stop and reheat the water. A hot water tank is pretty well insulated and the water will not require frequent reheating.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered Dec 7 at 23:34









              StrongBad

              7,0171751




              7,0171751






















                  up vote
                  2
                  down vote













                  it doesn't matter, your pipes will freeze long before the tanks will. At best the Mpemba effect buys you another hour before freezing sets in, however your pipes will simply not take an hour to freeze in freezing temps, so the effect will be very minimal. The solution for long duration freezing temps is to install a re-circulator pump, if your RV is too old to have a battery heated water tank. Another option is to wrap the pipe in heat tape and insulation.






                  share|improve this answer

























                    up vote
                    2
                    down vote













                    it doesn't matter, your pipes will freeze long before the tanks will. At best the Mpemba effect buys you another hour before freezing sets in, however your pipes will simply not take an hour to freeze in freezing temps, so the effect will be very minimal. The solution for long duration freezing temps is to install a re-circulator pump, if your RV is too old to have a battery heated water tank. Another option is to wrap the pipe in heat tape and insulation.






                    share|improve this answer























                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote









                      it doesn't matter, your pipes will freeze long before the tanks will. At best the Mpemba effect buys you another hour before freezing sets in, however your pipes will simply not take an hour to freeze in freezing temps, so the effect will be very minimal. The solution for long duration freezing temps is to install a re-circulator pump, if your RV is too old to have a battery heated water tank. Another option is to wrap the pipe in heat tape and insulation.






                      share|improve this answer












                      it doesn't matter, your pipes will freeze long before the tanks will. At best the Mpemba effect buys you another hour before freezing sets in, however your pipes will simply not take an hour to freeze in freezing temps, so the effect will be very minimal. The solution for long duration freezing temps is to install a re-circulator pump, if your RV is too old to have a battery heated water tank. Another option is to wrap the pipe in heat tape and insulation.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered Dec 7 at 19:47









                      Jim B

                      1213




                      1213






















                          up vote
                          2
                          down vote













                          A lot depends on how the water system in your RV works. Some RV's really aren't made for winter use. Others are designed from square one to be usable at cold temps. These will have heat tapes on the plumbing, well insulated water and sewage storage tanks, and drain systems that are easy to access.



                          As others have mentioned, the pipes are the first things to freeze. But if you have taps where opening the tap starts a pump, then they may be set up that water drains back into the tank when you shut the tap.



                          You also need to worry about traps in your water disposal system and the sewage tank freezing.



                          Bottom line: The hot water tank is the least of your worries.






                          share|improve this answer

























                            up vote
                            2
                            down vote













                            A lot depends on how the water system in your RV works. Some RV's really aren't made for winter use. Others are designed from square one to be usable at cold temps. These will have heat tapes on the plumbing, well insulated water and sewage storage tanks, and drain systems that are easy to access.



                            As others have mentioned, the pipes are the first things to freeze. But if you have taps where opening the tap starts a pump, then they may be set up that water drains back into the tank when you shut the tap.



                            You also need to worry about traps in your water disposal system and the sewage tank freezing.



                            Bottom line: The hot water tank is the least of your worries.






                            share|improve this answer























                              up vote
                              2
                              down vote










                              up vote
                              2
                              down vote









                              A lot depends on how the water system in your RV works. Some RV's really aren't made for winter use. Others are designed from square one to be usable at cold temps. These will have heat tapes on the plumbing, well insulated water and sewage storage tanks, and drain systems that are easy to access.



                              As others have mentioned, the pipes are the first things to freeze. But if you have taps where opening the tap starts a pump, then they may be set up that water drains back into the tank when you shut the tap.



                              You also need to worry about traps in your water disposal system and the sewage tank freezing.



                              Bottom line: The hot water tank is the least of your worries.






                              share|improve this answer












                              A lot depends on how the water system in your RV works. Some RV's really aren't made for winter use. Others are designed from square one to be usable at cold temps. These will have heat tapes on the plumbing, well insulated water and sewage storage tanks, and drain systems that are easy to access.



                              As others have mentioned, the pipes are the first things to freeze. But if you have taps where opening the tap starts a pump, then they may be set up that water drains back into the tank when you shut the tap.



                              You also need to worry about traps in your water disposal system and the sewage tank freezing.



                              Bottom line: The hot water tank is the least of your worries.







                              share|improve this answer












                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer










                              answered Dec 14 at 16:24









                              Sherwood Botsford

                              6,70911641




                              6,70911641






















                                  up vote
                                  1
                                  down vote













                                  This seems like a contradiction, if you are worried about freezing, then it would be better not to have any water in the tank/pipes where it could freeze and cause problems, and if not then it really doesn't matter whether or not it was hot or cold to start with.



                                  Also, as long as the journey is, it probably won't matter as the hot water will cool down to the same temperature as the cold tap water anyways.






                                  share|improve this answer

























                                    up vote
                                    1
                                    down vote













                                    This seems like a contradiction, if you are worried about freezing, then it would be better not to have any water in the tank/pipes where it could freeze and cause problems, and if not then it really doesn't matter whether or not it was hot or cold to start with.



                                    Also, as long as the journey is, it probably won't matter as the hot water will cool down to the same temperature as the cold tap water anyways.






                                    share|improve this answer























                                      up vote
                                      1
                                      down vote










                                      up vote
                                      1
                                      down vote









                                      This seems like a contradiction, if you are worried about freezing, then it would be better not to have any water in the tank/pipes where it could freeze and cause problems, and if not then it really doesn't matter whether or not it was hot or cold to start with.



                                      Also, as long as the journey is, it probably won't matter as the hot water will cool down to the same temperature as the cold tap water anyways.






                                      share|improve this answer












                                      This seems like a contradiction, if you are worried about freezing, then it would be better not to have any water in the tank/pipes where it could freeze and cause problems, and if not then it really doesn't matter whether or not it was hot or cold to start with.



                                      Also, as long as the journey is, it probably won't matter as the hot water will cool down to the same temperature as the cold tap water anyways.







                                      share|improve this answer












                                      share|improve this answer



                                      share|improve this answer










                                      answered Dec 7 at 19:34









                                      Charlie Brumbaugh

                                      45.1k15125254




                                      45.1k15125254






























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