Can a multiclassed Wizard/Sorcerer use the Twinned Spell metamagic option on Simulacrum?












19












$begingroup$


Consider a Wizard 13/Sorcerer 7 multiclass, who happens to have the Twinned Spell metamagic option:




When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).



To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.




Now this character casts simulacrum:




  1. Can a Sorcerer use Twinned Spell to create 2 duplicates of himself
    (or someone else)?


  2. Can a Sorcerer use Twinned Spell to create 1 duplicate for 2
    different targets at the same time?







dnd-5e spells wizard sorcerer metamagic







share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    This question is VERY related to this one.
    $endgroup$
    – AntiDrondert
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:31






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @BlueMoon93 Agree, theoretical application of Twinned Spell to Simulacrum is possible with Wiz-13/Sorc-7 multiclass, no Wish is needed.
    $endgroup$
    – AntiDrondert
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:47








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I edited the question to focus on the Twinned/Simulacrum aspect
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Millette
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:54










  • $begingroup$
    Since the MC option and the wish option are two very different questions and the latter already has an answer elsewhere I have edited this to only focus on the MC.
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:56






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Yes it does, although I'm probably more concerned about that matter about Twinned Wish now, But this is of course for another question.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Millette
    Dec 10 '18 at 17:54
















19












$begingroup$


Consider a Wizard 13/Sorcerer 7 multiclass, who happens to have the Twinned Spell metamagic option:




When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).



To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.




Now this character casts simulacrum:




  1. Can a Sorcerer use Twinned Spell to create 2 duplicates of himself
    (or someone else)?


  2. Can a Sorcerer use Twinned Spell to create 1 duplicate for 2
    different targets at the same time?







dnd-5e spells wizard sorcerer metamagic







share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    This question is VERY related to this one.
    $endgroup$
    – AntiDrondert
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:31






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @BlueMoon93 Agree, theoretical application of Twinned Spell to Simulacrum is possible with Wiz-13/Sorc-7 multiclass, no Wish is needed.
    $endgroup$
    – AntiDrondert
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:47








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I edited the question to focus on the Twinned/Simulacrum aspect
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Millette
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:54










  • $begingroup$
    Since the MC option and the wish option are two very different questions and the latter already has an answer elsewhere I have edited this to only focus on the MC.
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:56






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Yes it does, although I'm probably more concerned about that matter about Twinned Wish now, But this is of course for another question.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Millette
    Dec 10 '18 at 17:54














19












19








19


1



$begingroup$


Consider a Wizard 13/Sorcerer 7 multiclass, who happens to have the Twinned Spell metamagic option:




When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).



To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.




Now this character casts simulacrum:




  1. Can a Sorcerer use Twinned Spell to create 2 duplicates of himself
    (or someone else)?


  2. Can a Sorcerer use Twinned Spell to create 1 duplicate for 2
    different targets at the same time?







dnd-5e spells wizard sorcerer metamagic







share|improve this question











$endgroup$




Consider a Wizard 13/Sorcerer 7 multiclass, who happens to have the Twinned Spell metamagic option:




When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).



To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.




Now this character casts simulacrum:




  1. Can a Sorcerer use Twinned Spell to create 2 duplicates of himself
    (or someone else)?


  2. Can a Sorcerer use Twinned Spell to create 1 duplicate for 2
    different targets at the same time?







dnd-5e spells wizard sorcerer metamagic




dnd-5e spells wizard sorcerer metamagic






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Dec 11 '18 at 1:42









V2Blast

21.9k366139




21.9k366139










asked Dec 10 '18 at 14:12









Alex MilletteAlex Millette

2,18321332




2,18321332












  • $begingroup$
    This question is VERY related to this one.
    $endgroup$
    – AntiDrondert
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:31






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @BlueMoon93 Agree, theoretical application of Twinned Spell to Simulacrum is possible with Wiz-13/Sorc-7 multiclass, no Wish is needed.
    $endgroup$
    – AntiDrondert
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:47








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I edited the question to focus on the Twinned/Simulacrum aspect
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Millette
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:54










  • $begingroup$
    Since the MC option and the wish option are two very different questions and the latter already has an answer elsewhere I have edited this to only focus on the MC.
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:56






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Yes it does, although I'm probably more concerned about that matter about Twinned Wish now, But this is of course for another question.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Millette
    Dec 10 '18 at 17:54


















  • $begingroup$
    This question is VERY related to this one.
    $endgroup$
    – AntiDrondert
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:31






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @BlueMoon93 Agree, theoretical application of Twinned Spell to Simulacrum is possible with Wiz-13/Sorc-7 multiclass, no Wish is needed.
    $endgroup$
    – AntiDrondert
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:47








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I edited the question to focus on the Twinned/Simulacrum aspect
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Millette
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:54










  • $begingroup$
    Since the MC option and the wish option are two very different questions and the latter already has an answer elsewhere I have edited this to only focus on the MC.
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    Dec 10 '18 at 14:56






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Yes it does, although I'm probably more concerned about that matter about Twinned Wish now, But this is of course for another question.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Millette
    Dec 10 '18 at 17:54
















$begingroup$
This question is VERY related to this one.
$endgroup$
– AntiDrondert
Dec 10 '18 at 14:31




$begingroup$
This question is VERY related to this one.
$endgroup$
– AntiDrondert
Dec 10 '18 at 14:31




3




3




$begingroup$
@BlueMoon93 Agree, theoretical application of Twinned Spell to Simulacrum is possible with Wiz-13/Sorc-7 multiclass, no Wish is needed.
$endgroup$
– AntiDrondert
Dec 10 '18 at 14:47






$begingroup$
@BlueMoon93 Agree, theoretical application of Twinned Spell to Simulacrum is possible with Wiz-13/Sorc-7 multiclass, no Wish is needed.
$endgroup$
– AntiDrondert
Dec 10 '18 at 14:47






1




1




$begingroup$
I edited the question to focus on the Twinned/Simulacrum aspect
$endgroup$
– Alex Millette
Dec 10 '18 at 14:54




$begingroup$
I edited the question to focus on the Twinned/Simulacrum aspect
$endgroup$
– Alex Millette
Dec 10 '18 at 14:54












$begingroup$
Since the MC option and the wish option are two very different questions and the latter already has an answer elsewhere I have edited this to only focus on the MC.
$endgroup$
– Rubiksmoose
Dec 10 '18 at 14:56




$begingroup$
Since the MC option and the wish option are two very different questions and the latter already has an answer elsewhere I have edited this to only focus on the MC.
$endgroup$
– Rubiksmoose
Dec 10 '18 at 14:56




1




1




$begingroup$
Yes it does, although I'm probably more concerned about that matter about Twinned Wish now, But this is of course for another question.
$endgroup$
– Alex Millette
Dec 10 '18 at 17:54




$begingroup$
Yes it does, although I'm probably more concerned about that matter about Twinned Wish now, But this is of course for another question.
$endgroup$
– Alex Millette
Dec 10 '18 at 17:54










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















25












$begingroup$

Yes, Simulacrum can be twinned



It creates one duplicate each of two creatures.



Just to take the first line of the Simulacrum spell:




You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell.




The target is one beast or humanoid within range touch.



There's nothing logically stopping this from working. Simulacrum doesn't target self or more than one creature.





And to pull out a line of the Twinned Spell feature:




[snip] ... target a second creature in range ... [snip]




If you had two people (one of which could be yourself) within the range of "touch" for 12 hours and you have the sorcery points (you'll need seven), then you should be able to twin the spell and create two duplicates: one of each creature.



Also as a restriction of Twinned Spell, a twinned simulacrum can not be used to create two duplicates of the same creature.



So, to answer your questions succinctly:




  1. No, a twinned simulacrum must target different creatures.

  2. Yes.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$





















    8












    $begingroup$

    You can twin Simulacrum, and create a duplicate of a target, and a duplicate of a second target.



    Simulacrum falls under Twinned Spell requirements, and now targets 2 creatures. It's the same as if you had cast Simulacrum twice, with different targets, except the first duplicate does not disappear.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$





















      2












      $begingroup$

      Probably not for the twin Simulacrum



      Simulacrum isn't a creature until after the spell takes effect.




      You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is
      within range for the entire casting time of the spell. The duplicate
      is a creature      , partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can
      take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. (SRD, p. 180)




      What the sorcerer is casting the spell on is a bunch of objects, not a creature, that become a creature.




      (snow or ice in quantities sufficient to made a life-­‐‑size copy of the duplicated creature; some hair, fingernail clippings, or other piece of that creature’s body placed inside the snow or ice; and powdered ruby worth 1,500 gp, sprinkled over the duplicate and consumed by the spell) (SRD p. 180)




      Twin needs to be cast on a creature, specifically, per the rules you cited. With that in mind ...



      Maybe you can (what is being touched?)



      With a range of touch, it is unclear whether or not that which is to be duplicated must be touched or not. If yes, then provided that sufficient material is present, then the sorcerer is "touching" a creature and thus makes two duplicates of that creature. (thanks to @AlexMillette for that point)



      I can see the ruling going either way, so discuss with your DM. The issue to resolve is "what it is that the caster is touching in order to create the simulacrum? The pile of material, or the creature to be duplicated?"



      As an aside, regarding "touching" for touch spells and abilities, how the touch is to be executed isn't precisely defined. (A JCrawford tweet).






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$













      • $begingroup$
        "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell." This seems to imply that the "Touch" range refers to the targeted original, which is certainly a creature.
        $endgroup$
        – Alex Millette
        Dec 10 '18 at 14:21










      • $begingroup$
        I see his point, although I highly doubt it was intended in this way. The range is "touch" and the creature to be duplicated has to stay within that range for the duration of the cast. This begs the question as to how do you craft a snowman while groping your victim? I think it is another example of horrible wording, or trying to copy a previous version.
        $endgroup$
        – Slagmoth
        Dec 10 '18 at 14:25










      • $begingroup$
        @AlexMillette Interesting point, so I folded that in. Good catch.
        $endgroup$
        – KorvinStarmast
        Dec 10 '18 at 14:26










      • $begingroup$
        I get a feeling these should be two separate answers... whether the components or the original creature should be considered the target completely changes which answer you get.
        $endgroup$
        – Erik
        Dec 10 '18 at 14:28










      • $begingroup$
        @Erik I appreciate your point, but I find more appealing the 5e approach of ruling over rules when the text doesn't specify;
        $endgroup$
        – KorvinStarmast
        Dec 10 '18 at 15:17











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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      25












      $begingroup$

      Yes, Simulacrum can be twinned



      It creates one duplicate each of two creatures.



      Just to take the first line of the Simulacrum spell:




      You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell.




      The target is one beast or humanoid within range touch.



      There's nothing logically stopping this from working. Simulacrum doesn't target self or more than one creature.





      And to pull out a line of the Twinned Spell feature:




      [snip] ... target a second creature in range ... [snip]




      If you had two people (one of which could be yourself) within the range of "touch" for 12 hours and you have the sorcery points (you'll need seven), then you should be able to twin the spell and create two duplicates: one of each creature.



      Also as a restriction of Twinned Spell, a twinned simulacrum can not be used to create two duplicates of the same creature.



      So, to answer your questions succinctly:




      1. No, a twinned simulacrum must target different creatures.

      2. Yes.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$


















        25












        $begingroup$

        Yes, Simulacrum can be twinned



        It creates one duplicate each of two creatures.



        Just to take the first line of the Simulacrum spell:




        You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell.




        The target is one beast or humanoid within range touch.



        There's nothing logically stopping this from working. Simulacrum doesn't target self or more than one creature.





        And to pull out a line of the Twinned Spell feature:




        [snip] ... target a second creature in range ... [snip]




        If you had two people (one of which could be yourself) within the range of "touch" for 12 hours and you have the sorcery points (you'll need seven), then you should be able to twin the spell and create two duplicates: one of each creature.



        Also as a restriction of Twinned Spell, a twinned simulacrum can not be used to create two duplicates of the same creature.



        So, to answer your questions succinctly:




        1. No, a twinned simulacrum must target different creatures.

        2. Yes.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$
















          25












          25








          25





          $begingroup$

          Yes, Simulacrum can be twinned



          It creates one duplicate each of two creatures.



          Just to take the first line of the Simulacrum spell:




          You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell.




          The target is one beast or humanoid within range touch.



          There's nothing logically stopping this from working. Simulacrum doesn't target self or more than one creature.





          And to pull out a line of the Twinned Spell feature:




          [snip] ... target a second creature in range ... [snip]




          If you had two people (one of which could be yourself) within the range of "touch" for 12 hours and you have the sorcery points (you'll need seven), then you should be able to twin the spell and create two duplicates: one of each creature.



          Also as a restriction of Twinned Spell, a twinned simulacrum can not be used to create two duplicates of the same creature.



          So, to answer your questions succinctly:




          1. No, a twinned simulacrum must target different creatures.

          2. Yes.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          Yes, Simulacrum can be twinned



          It creates one duplicate each of two creatures.



          Just to take the first line of the Simulacrum spell:




          You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell.




          The target is one beast or humanoid within range touch.



          There's nothing logically stopping this from working. Simulacrum doesn't target self or more than one creature.





          And to pull out a line of the Twinned Spell feature:




          [snip] ... target a second creature in range ... [snip]




          If you had two people (one of which could be yourself) within the range of "touch" for 12 hours and you have the sorcery points (you'll need seven), then you should be able to twin the spell and create two duplicates: one of each creature.



          Also as a restriction of Twinned Spell, a twinned simulacrum can not be used to create two duplicates of the same creature.



          So, to answer your questions succinctly:




          1. No, a twinned simulacrum must target different creatures.

          2. Yes.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited Dec 11 '18 at 14:10









          Rubiksmoose

          53.8k9263405




          53.8k9263405










          answered Dec 10 '18 at 14:37









          goodguy5goodguy5

          8,23122870




          8,23122870

























              8












              $begingroup$

              You can twin Simulacrum, and create a duplicate of a target, and a duplicate of a second target.



              Simulacrum falls under Twinned Spell requirements, and now targets 2 creatures. It's the same as if you had cast Simulacrum twice, with different targets, except the first duplicate does not disappear.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$


















                8












                $begingroup$

                You can twin Simulacrum, and create a duplicate of a target, and a duplicate of a second target.



                Simulacrum falls under Twinned Spell requirements, and now targets 2 creatures. It's the same as if you had cast Simulacrum twice, with different targets, except the first duplicate does not disappear.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$
















                  8












                  8








                  8





                  $begingroup$

                  You can twin Simulacrum, and create a duplicate of a target, and a duplicate of a second target.



                  Simulacrum falls under Twinned Spell requirements, and now targets 2 creatures. It's the same as if you had cast Simulacrum twice, with different targets, except the first duplicate does not disappear.






                  share|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  You can twin Simulacrum, and create a duplicate of a target, and a duplicate of a second target.



                  Simulacrum falls under Twinned Spell requirements, and now targets 2 creatures. It's the same as if you had cast Simulacrum twice, with different targets, except the first duplicate does not disappear.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited Dec 10 '18 at 15:38

























                  answered Dec 10 '18 at 14:34









                  BlueMoon93BlueMoon93

                  13.7k974140




                  13.7k974140























                      2












                      $begingroup$

                      Probably not for the twin Simulacrum



                      Simulacrum isn't a creature until after the spell takes effect.




                      You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is
                      within range for the entire casting time of the spell. The duplicate
                      is a creature                      , partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can
                      take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. (SRD, p. 180)




                      What the sorcerer is casting the spell on is a bunch of objects, not a creature, that become a creature.




                      (snow or ice in quantities sufficient to made a life-­‐‑size copy of the duplicated creature; some hair, fingernail clippings, or other piece of that creature’s body placed inside the snow or ice; and powdered ruby worth 1,500 gp, sprinkled over the duplicate and consumed by the spell) (SRD p. 180)




                      Twin needs to be cast on a creature, specifically, per the rules you cited. With that in mind ...



                      Maybe you can (what is being touched?)



                      With a range of touch, it is unclear whether or not that which is to be duplicated must be touched or not. If yes, then provided that sufficient material is present, then the sorcerer is "touching" a creature and thus makes two duplicates of that creature. (thanks to @AlexMillette for that point)



                      I can see the ruling going either way, so discuss with your DM. The issue to resolve is "what it is that the caster is touching in order to create the simulacrum? The pile of material, or the creature to be duplicated?"



                      As an aside, regarding "touching" for touch spells and abilities, how the touch is to be executed isn't precisely defined. (A JCrawford tweet).






                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$













                      • $begingroup$
                        "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell." This seems to imply that the "Touch" range refers to the targeted original, which is certainly a creature.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Alex Millette
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:21










                      • $begingroup$
                        I see his point, although I highly doubt it was intended in this way. The range is "touch" and the creature to be duplicated has to stay within that range for the duration of the cast. This begs the question as to how do you craft a snowman while groping your victim? I think it is another example of horrible wording, or trying to copy a previous version.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Slagmoth
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:25










                      • $begingroup$
                        @AlexMillette Interesting point, so I folded that in. Good catch.
                        $endgroup$
                        – KorvinStarmast
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:26










                      • $begingroup$
                        I get a feeling these should be two separate answers... whether the components or the original creature should be considered the target completely changes which answer you get.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Erik
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:28










                      • $begingroup$
                        @Erik I appreciate your point, but I find more appealing the 5e approach of ruling over rules when the text doesn't specify;
                        $endgroup$
                        – KorvinStarmast
                        Dec 10 '18 at 15:17
















                      2












                      $begingroup$

                      Probably not for the twin Simulacrum



                      Simulacrum isn't a creature until after the spell takes effect.




                      You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is
                      within range for the entire casting time of the spell. The duplicate
                      is a creature                      , partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can
                      take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. (SRD, p. 180)




                      What the sorcerer is casting the spell on is a bunch of objects, not a creature, that become a creature.




                      (snow or ice in quantities sufficient to made a life-­‐‑size copy of the duplicated creature; some hair, fingernail clippings, or other piece of that creature’s body placed inside the snow or ice; and powdered ruby worth 1,500 gp, sprinkled over the duplicate and consumed by the spell) (SRD p. 180)




                      Twin needs to be cast on a creature, specifically, per the rules you cited. With that in mind ...



                      Maybe you can (what is being touched?)



                      With a range of touch, it is unclear whether or not that which is to be duplicated must be touched or not. If yes, then provided that sufficient material is present, then the sorcerer is "touching" a creature and thus makes two duplicates of that creature. (thanks to @AlexMillette for that point)



                      I can see the ruling going either way, so discuss with your DM. The issue to resolve is "what it is that the caster is touching in order to create the simulacrum? The pile of material, or the creature to be duplicated?"



                      As an aside, regarding "touching" for touch spells and abilities, how the touch is to be executed isn't precisely defined. (A JCrawford tweet).






                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$













                      • $begingroup$
                        "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell." This seems to imply that the "Touch" range refers to the targeted original, which is certainly a creature.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Alex Millette
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:21










                      • $begingroup$
                        I see his point, although I highly doubt it was intended in this way. The range is "touch" and the creature to be duplicated has to stay within that range for the duration of the cast. This begs the question as to how do you craft a snowman while groping your victim? I think it is another example of horrible wording, or trying to copy a previous version.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Slagmoth
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:25










                      • $begingroup$
                        @AlexMillette Interesting point, so I folded that in. Good catch.
                        $endgroup$
                        – KorvinStarmast
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:26










                      • $begingroup$
                        I get a feeling these should be two separate answers... whether the components or the original creature should be considered the target completely changes which answer you get.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Erik
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:28










                      • $begingroup$
                        @Erik I appreciate your point, but I find more appealing the 5e approach of ruling over rules when the text doesn't specify;
                        $endgroup$
                        – KorvinStarmast
                        Dec 10 '18 at 15:17














                      2












                      2








                      2





                      $begingroup$

                      Probably not for the twin Simulacrum



                      Simulacrum isn't a creature until after the spell takes effect.




                      You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is
                      within range for the entire casting time of the spell. The duplicate
                      is a creature                      , partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can
                      take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. (SRD, p. 180)




                      What the sorcerer is casting the spell on is a bunch of objects, not a creature, that become a creature.




                      (snow or ice in quantities sufficient to made a life-­‐‑size copy of the duplicated creature; some hair, fingernail clippings, or other piece of that creature’s body placed inside the snow or ice; and powdered ruby worth 1,500 gp, sprinkled over the duplicate and consumed by the spell) (SRD p. 180)




                      Twin needs to be cast on a creature, specifically, per the rules you cited. With that in mind ...



                      Maybe you can (what is being touched?)



                      With a range of touch, it is unclear whether or not that which is to be duplicated must be touched or not. If yes, then provided that sufficient material is present, then the sorcerer is "touching" a creature and thus makes two duplicates of that creature. (thanks to @AlexMillette for that point)



                      I can see the ruling going either way, so discuss with your DM. The issue to resolve is "what it is that the caster is touching in order to create the simulacrum? The pile of material, or the creature to be duplicated?"



                      As an aside, regarding "touching" for touch spells and abilities, how the touch is to be executed isn't precisely defined. (A JCrawford tweet).






                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$



                      Probably not for the twin Simulacrum



                      Simulacrum isn't a creature until after the spell takes effect.




                      You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is
                      within range for the entire casting time of the spell. The duplicate
                      is a creature                      , partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can
                      take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. (SRD, p. 180)




                      What the sorcerer is casting the spell on is a bunch of objects, not a creature, that become a creature.




                      (snow or ice in quantities sufficient to made a life-­‐‑size copy of the duplicated creature; some hair, fingernail clippings, or other piece of that creature’s body placed inside the snow or ice; and powdered ruby worth 1,500 gp, sprinkled over the duplicate and consumed by the spell) (SRD p. 180)




                      Twin needs to be cast on a creature, specifically, per the rules you cited. With that in mind ...



                      Maybe you can (what is being touched?)



                      With a range of touch, it is unclear whether or not that which is to be duplicated must be touched or not. If yes, then provided that sufficient material is present, then the sorcerer is "touching" a creature and thus makes two duplicates of that creature. (thanks to @AlexMillette for that point)



                      I can see the ruling going either way, so discuss with your DM. The issue to resolve is "what it is that the caster is touching in order to create the simulacrum? The pile of material, or the creature to be duplicated?"



                      As an aside, regarding "touching" for touch spells and abilities, how the touch is to be executed isn't precisely defined. (A JCrawford tweet).







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited Dec 10 '18 at 20:24

























                      answered Dec 10 '18 at 14:18









                      KorvinStarmastKorvinStarmast

                      78.2k18243426




                      78.2k18243426












                      • $begingroup$
                        "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell." This seems to imply that the "Touch" range refers to the targeted original, which is certainly a creature.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Alex Millette
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:21










                      • $begingroup$
                        I see his point, although I highly doubt it was intended in this way. The range is "touch" and the creature to be duplicated has to stay within that range for the duration of the cast. This begs the question as to how do you craft a snowman while groping your victim? I think it is another example of horrible wording, or trying to copy a previous version.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Slagmoth
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:25










                      • $begingroup$
                        @AlexMillette Interesting point, so I folded that in. Good catch.
                        $endgroup$
                        – KorvinStarmast
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:26










                      • $begingroup$
                        I get a feeling these should be two separate answers... whether the components or the original creature should be considered the target completely changes which answer you get.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Erik
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:28










                      • $begingroup$
                        @Erik I appreciate your point, but I find more appealing the 5e approach of ruling over rules when the text doesn't specify;
                        $endgroup$
                        – KorvinStarmast
                        Dec 10 '18 at 15:17


















                      • $begingroup$
                        "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell." This seems to imply that the "Touch" range refers to the targeted original, which is certainly a creature.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Alex Millette
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:21










                      • $begingroup$
                        I see his point, although I highly doubt it was intended in this way. The range is "touch" and the creature to be duplicated has to stay within that range for the duration of the cast. This begs the question as to how do you craft a snowman while groping your victim? I think it is another example of horrible wording, or trying to copy a previous version.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Slagmoth
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:25










                      • $begingroup$
                        @AlexMillette Interesting point, so I folded that in. Good catch.
                        $endgroup$
                        – KorvinStarmast
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:26










                      • $begingroup$
                        I get a feeling these should be two separate answers... whether the components or the original creature should be considered the target completely changes which answer you get.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Erik
                        Dec 10 '18 at 14:28










                      • $begingroup$
                        @Erik I appreciate your point, but I find more appealing the 5e approach of ruling over rules when the text doesn't specify;
                        $endgroup$
                        – KorvinStarmast
                        Dec 10 '18 at 15:17
















                      $begingroup$
                      "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell." This seems to imply that the "Touch" range refers to the targeted original, which is certainly a creature.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Alex Millette
                      Dec 10 '18 at 14:21




                      $begingroup$
                      "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell." This seems to imply that the "Touch" range refers to the targeted original, which is certainly a creature.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Alex Millette
                      Dec 10 '18 at 14:21












                      $begingroup$
                      I see his point, although I highly doubt it was intended in this way. The range is "touch" and the creature to be duplicated has to stay within that range for the duration of the cast. This begs the question as to how do you craft a snowman while groping your victim? I think it is another example of horrible wording, or trying to copy a previous version.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Slagmoth
                      Dec 10 '18 at 14:25




                      $begingroup$
                      I see his point, although I highly doubt it was intended in this way. The range is "touch" and the creature to be duplicated has to stay within that range for the duration of the cast. This begs the question as to how do you craft a snowman while groping your victim? I think it is another example of horrible wording, or trying to copy a previous version.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Slagmoth
                      Dec 10 '18 at 14:25












                      $begingroup$
                      @AlexMillette Interesting point, so I folded that in. Good catch.
                      $endgroup$
                      – KorvinStarmast
                      Dec 10 '18 at 14:26




                      $begingroup$
                      @AlexMillette Interesting point, so I folded that in. Good catch.
                      $endgroup$
                      – KorvinStarmast
                      Dec 10 '18 at 14:26












                      $begingroup$
                      I get a feeling these should be two separate answers... whether the components or the original creature should be considered the target completely changes which answer you get.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Erik
                      Dec 10 '18 at 14:28




                      $begingroup$
                      I get a feeling these should be two separate answers... whether the components or the original creature should be considered the target completely changes which answer you get.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Erik
                      Dec 10 '18 at 14:28












                      $begingroup$
                      @Erik I appreciate your point, but I find more appealing the 5e approach of ruling over rules when the text doesn't specify;
                      $endgroup$
                      – KorvinStarmast
                      Dec 10 '18 at 15:17




                      $begingroup$
                      @Erik I appreciate your point, but I find more appealing the 5e approach of ruling over rules when the text doesn't specify;
                      $endgroup$
                      – KorvinStarmast
                      Dec 10 '18 at 15:17


















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