How to prove that $(-18+sqrt{325})^{frac{1}{3}}+(-18-sqrt{325})^{frac{1}{3}} = 3$











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How to prove that $left(-18+sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}}+left(-18-sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}} = 3$ in a direct way ?



I have found one indirect way to do so: Define $t=left(-18+sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}}+left(-18-sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}}$, and then observe $t$ is a root of $f(x) = x^3 + 3x - 36 = 0$. Also observe that $f(3) = 0$. Now $f(x)$ has only one real root, since $f'(x) = x^2+3$ has no real solution. So $t =3$, as desired.



But I couldn't find any direct/algebraic way of fiddling it for a while. I guess morever this is true: $left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}+sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}}+left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}-sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}} = t$, which can possibly be proved in the same indirect way but I don't know how to prove this by direct manipulation.



One way maybe is to write $z_+ = left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}+sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}}$, $z_- = left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}-sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}}$, and writing $t = z_+ + z_-$, observe $z_+z_- = -1$, so $(x-z_+)(x-z_-) = x^2 - tx -1$, and then with Fundamental Theorem of Symmetric Polynomials, maybe calculating $(z_+^3 - z_-^3)^2$ and $(z_+^3 + z_-^3)$ in terms of $t$ would help ?










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  • 3




    Is it written correctly, because as written, it is not true - see wolframalpha.com/input/…
    – Moo
    Nov 24 at 5:45








  • 2




    @Moo you can use Surd or CubeRoot function. W|A has a different understanding of $(-x)^{1/3}$. Also, OP updated the numbers.
    – Kemono Chen
    Nov 24 at 5:50








  • 1




    Mathematica input CubeRoot[Sqrt[325] - 18] + CubeRoot[-Sqrt[325] - 18] // FullSimplify shows the result is $-3$.
    – Kemono Chen
    Nov 24 at 5:53






  • 2




    As it is currently written, the LHS equals $-3$, not $3$. This is easily seen by noting that $18^2 = 324$, thus $sqrt{325}$ is only slightly more than $18$, whereas $-18 - sqrt{325} approx -36$.
    – heropup
    Nov 24 at 5:54






  • 1




    Your LHS looks negative to me.
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Nov 24 at 5:55















up vote
4
down vote

favorite
2












How to prove that $left(-18+sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}}+left(-18-sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}} = 3$ in a direct way ?



I have found one indirect way to do so: Define $t=left(-18+sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}}+left(-18-sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}}$, and then observe $t$ is a root of $f(x) = x^3 + 3x - 36 = 0$. Also observe that $f(3) = 0$. Now $f(x)$ has only one real root, since $f'(x) = x^2+3$ has no real solution. So $t =3$, as desired.



But I couldn't find any direct/algebraic way of fiddling it for a while. I guess morever this is true: $left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}+sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}}+left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}-sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}} = t$, which can possibly be proved in the same indirect way but I don't know how to prove this by direct manipulation.



One way maybe is to write $z_+ = left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}+sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}}$, $z_- = left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}-sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}}$, and writing $t = z_+ + z_-$, observe $z_+z_- = -1$, so $(x-z_+)(x-z_-) = x^2 - tx -1$, and then with Fundamental Theorem of Symmetric Polynomials, maybe calculating $(z_+^3 - z_-^3)^2$ and $(z_+^3 + z_-^3)$ in terms of $t$ would help ?










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 3




    Is it written correctly, because as written, it is not true - see wolframalpha.com/input/…
    – Moo
    Nov 24 at 5:45








  • 2




    @Moo you can use Surd or CubeRoot function. W|A has a different understanding of $(-x)^{1/3}$. Also, OP updated the numbers.
    – Kemono Chen
    Nov 24 at 5:50








  • 1




    Mathematica input CubeRoot[Sqrt[325] - 18] + CubeRoot[-Sqrt[325] - 18] // FullSimplify shows the result is $-3$.
    – Kemono Chen
    Nov 24 at 5:53






  • 2




    As it is currently written, the LHS equals $-3$, not $3$. This is easily seen by noting that $18^2 = 324$, thus $sqrt{325}$ is only slightly more than $18$, whereas $-18 - sqrt{325} approx -36$.
    – heropup
    Nov 24 at 5:54






  • 1




    Your LHS looks negative to me.
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Nov 24 at 5:55













up vote
4
down vote

favorite
2









up vote
4
down vote

favorite
2






2





How to prove that $left(-18+sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}}+left(-18-sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}} = 3$ in a direct way ?



I have found one indirect way to do so: Define $t=left(-18+sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}}+left(-18-sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}}$, and then observe $t$ is a root of $f(x) = x^3 + 3x - 36 = 0$. Also observe that $f(3) = 0$. Now $f(x)$ has only one real root, since $f'(x) = x^2+3$ has no real solution. So $t =3$, as desired.



But I couldn't find any direct/algebraic way of fiddling it for a while. I guess morever this is true: $left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}+sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}}+left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}-sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}} = t$, which can possibly be proved in the same indirect way but I don't know how to prove this by direct manipulation.



One way maybe is to write $z_+ = left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}+sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}}$, $z_- = left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}-sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}}$, and writing $t = z_+ + z_-$, observe $z_+z_- = -1$, so $(x-z_+)(x-z_-) = x^2 - tx -1$, and then with Fundamental Theorem of Symmetric Polynomials, maybe calculating $(z_+^3 - z_-^3)^2$ and $(z_+^3 + z_-^3)$ in terms of $t$ would help ?










share|cite|improve this question















How to prove that $left(-18+sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}}+left(-18-sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}} = 3$ in a direct way ?



I have found one indirect way to do so: Define $t=left(-18+sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}}+left(-18-sqrt{325}right)^{frac{1}{3}}$, and then observe $t$ is a root of $f(x) = x^3 + 3x - 36 = 0$. Also observe that $f(3) = 0$. Now $f(x)$ has only one real root, since $f'(x) = x^2+3$ has no real solution. So $t =3$, as desired.



But I couldn't find any direct/algebraic way of fiddling it for a while. I guess morever this is true: $left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}+sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}}+left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}-sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}} = t$, which can possibly be proved in the same indirect way but I don't know how to prove this by direct manipulation.



One way maybe is to write $z_+ = left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}+sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}}$, $z_- = left(-frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}-sqrt{left[frac{t(t^2+3)}{2}right]^2 + 1}right)^{frac{1}{3}}$, and writing $t = z_+ + z_-$, observe $z_+z_- = -1$, so $(x-z_+)(x-z_-) = x^2 - tx -1$, and then with Fundamental Theorem of Symmetric Polynomials, maybe calculating $(z_+^3 - z_-^3)^2$ and $(z_+^3 + z_-^3)$ in terms of $t$ would help ?







abstract-algebra polynomials galois-theory






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edited Nov 24 at 7:16









Robert Howard

1,9181822




1,9181822










asked Nov 24 at 5:40









alxchen

521421




521421








  • 3




    Is it written correctly, because as written, it is not true - see wolframalpha.com/input/…
    – Moo
    Nov 24 at 5:45








  • 2




    @Moo you can use Surd or CubeRoot function. W|A has a different understanding of $(-x)^{1/3}$. Also, OP updated the numbers.
    – Kemono Chen
    Nov 24 at 5:50








  • 1




    Mathematica input CubeRoot[Sqrt[325] - 18] + CubeRoot[-Sqrt[325] - 18] // FullSimplify shows the result is $-3$.
    – Kemono Chen
    Nov 24 at 5:53






  • 2




    As it is currently written, the LHS equals $-3$, not $3$. This is easily seen by noting that $18^2 = 324$, thus $sqrt{325}$ is only slightly more than $18$, whereas $-18 - sqrt{325} approx -36$.
    – heropup
    Nov 24 at 5:54






  • 1




    Your LHS looks negative to me.
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Nov 24 at 5:55














  • 3




    Is it written correctly, because as written, it is not true - see wolframalpha.com/input/…
    – Moo
    Nov 24 at 5:45








  • 2




    @Moo you can use Surd or CubeRoot function. W|A has a different understanding of $(-x)^{1/3}$. Also, OP updated the numbers.
    – Kemono Chen
    Nov 24 at 5:50








  • 1




    Mathematica input CubeRoot[Sqrt[325] - 18] + CubeRoot[-Sqrt[325] - 18] // FullSimplify shows the result is $-3$.
    – Kemono Chen
    Nov 24 at 5:53






  • 2




    As it is currently written, the LHS equals $-3$, not $3$. This is easily seen by noting that $18^2 = 324$, thus $sqrt{325}$ is only slightly more than $18$, whereas $-18 - sqrt{325} approx -36$.
    – heropup
    Nov 24 at 5:54






  • 1




    Your LHS looks negative to me.
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Nov 24 at 5:55








3




3




Is it written correctly, because as written, it is not true - see wolframalpha.com/input/…
– Moo
Nov 24 at 5:45






Is it written correctly, because as written, it is not true - see wolframalpha.com/input/…
– Moo
Nov 24 at 5:45






2




2




@Moo you can use Surd or CubeRoot function. W|A has a different understanding of $(-x)^{1/3}$. Also, OP updated the numbers.
– Kemono Chen
Nov 24 at 5:50






@Moo you can use Surd or CubeRoot function. W|A has a different understanding of $(-x)^{1/3}$. Also, OP updated the numbers.
– Kemono Chen
Nov 24 at 5:50






1




1




Mathematica input CubeRoot[Sqrt[325] - 18] + CubeRoot[-Sqrt[325] - 18] // FullSimplify shows the result is $-3$.
– Kemono Chen
Nov 24 at 5:53




Mathematica input CubeRoot[Sqrt[325] - 18] + CubeRoot[-Sqrt[325] - 18] // FullSimplify shows the result is $-3$.
– Kemono Chen
Nov 24 at 5:53




2




2




As it is currently written, the LHS equals $-3$, not $3$. This is easily seen by noting that $18^2 = 324$, thus $sqrt{325}$ is only slightly more than $18$, whereas $-18 - sqrt{325} approx -36$.
– heropup
Nov 24 at 5:54




As it is currently written, the LHS equals $-3$, not $3$. This is easily seen by noting that $18^2 = 324$, thus $sqrt{325}$ is only slightly more than $18$, whereas $-18 - sqrt{325} approx -36$.
– heropup
Nov 24 at 5:54




1




1




Your LHS looks negative to me.
– Lord Shark the Unknown
Nov 24 at 5:55




Your LHS looks negative to me.
– Lord Shark the Unknown
Nov 24 at 5:55










3 Answers
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up vote
2
down vote



accepted










Compute
$$left(frac{3+sqrt{13}}2right)^3=18+5sqrt{13}.$$
Therefore
$$sqrt[3]{18+5sqrt{13}}=frac{3+sqrt{13}}2.$$
Similarly
$$sqrt[3]{pm 18pm 5sqrt{13}}=frac{pm 3pmsqrt{13}}2$$
where the signs on both sides correspond. Then
$$sqrt[3]{-18+ 5sqrt{13}}-sqrt[3]{-18-5sqrt{13}}
=frac{-3+sqrt{13}}2+frac{-3-sqrt{13}}2=-3.$$






share|cite|improve this answer

















  • 2




    How did you find the identity $(3+sqrt{13})^3 = 8(18 + 5 sqrt{13})$ a priori ? In particular, how one is supposed to come up with such identities ?
    – alxchen
    Nov 24 at 7:13






  • 3




    Well, $18+5sqrt{13}$ is a unit in a quadratic field, in which $frac12(3+sqrt{13})$ is the fundamental unit.
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Nov 24 at 7:28


















up vote
2
down vote













Let first root be $A$ and second be $B$, then we need to find the value of $A + B = x$




  1. $A^3 + B^3 = -36$

  2. $AB = -1$


Expand the cube: $A^3 + B^3 = (A+B)*(A^2 - AB + B^2) = (A+B)*((A+B)^2-3AB) = x*(x^2+3) = x^3 + 3x = -36$.



Easy guess $x = -3$





Another approach: assume that you have a cube under the root, then, say, you take the right equation where you factor the minus out:
$18 + 5sqrt{13} = (a+bsqrt{13})^3$



Then you gotta solve the system of equations made from matching the summands with the $sqrt{13}$ and without:




  1. $a^3 + 39ab^2 = 18$

  2. $3a^2b + 13b^3 = 5$


Wolfram yields $a = 1.5$ and $b = 0.5$, by hand calculations led me nowhere






share|cite|improve this answer























  • This method is already given by OP in the question, I think
    – Kemono Chen
    Nov 24 at 6:14












  • edited with another approach
    – Makina
    Nov 24 at 6:26










  • Makina.Your first approach gives an idea where the cubic equation came from.+
    – Peter Szilas
    Nov 24 at 7:29


















up vote
0
down vote













It helps a lot that we know the answer in advance! Otherwise, some lucky guesswork (or knowledge of algebraic number theory) is required.



One can follow a quite similar line of reasoning to Rafael Bombelli (c.1526-1572). See Bombelli and the invention of complex numbers; or my answer to an earlier question here; or section 14.3, "Cubic Equations", of John Stillwell's book Mathematics and Its History (second edition 2002 - there is a third edition, which I don't have).



We know that if $a$ and $b$ are rational, and $(a + bsqrt{13})^3 = c + dsqrt{13}$, then $(a - bsqrt{13})^3 = c - dsqrt{13}$. So it is a natural idea - and a much less "radical" leap than Bombelli's (if you'll pardon the pun) - to look for rational $a, b$ such that $(a + bsqrt{13})^3 = 18 + 5sqrt{13}$. Then we will have $sqrt[3]{18 + 5sqrt{13}} + sqrt[3]{18 - 5sqrt{13}} = 2a$.



We know right away that $a = frac{3}{2}$. (Honesty compels me to admit that I initially overlooked this obvious fact!) Equating coefficients of the irrational number $sqrt{13}$ in the expanded version of either of the equations defining $a, b$, we have $a^3 + 39ab^2 = 18$, which simplifies to $frac{9}{4} + 39b^2 = 12$. Taking $b > 0$, for definiteness, we have $b = frac{1}{2}$. We now only
need check that $3a^2b + 13b^3 = 5$, i.e. $3a^2 + 13b^2 = 10$, to see that the
defining equations for $a, b$ are indeed satisfied.






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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

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    active

    oldest

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    active

    oldest

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    up vote
    2
    down vote



    accepted










    Compute
    $$left(frac{3+sqrt{13}}2right)^3=18+5sqrt{13}.$$
    Therefore
    $$sqrt[3]{18+5sqrt{13}}=frac{3+sqrt{13}}2.$$
    Similarly
    $$sqrt[3]{pm 18pm 5sqrt{13}}=frac{pm 3pmsqrt{13}}2$$
    where the signs on both sides correspond. Then
    $$sqrt[3]{-18+ 5sqrt{13}}-sqrt[3]{-18-5sqrt{13}}
    =frac{-3+sqrt{13}}2+frac{-3-sqrt{13}}2=-3.$$






    share|cite|improve this answer

















    • 2




      How did you find the identity $(3+sqrt{13})^3 = 8(18 + 5 sqrt{13})$ a priori ? In particular, how one is supposed to come up with such identities ?
      – alxchen
      Nov 24 at 7:13






    • 3




      Well, $18+5sqrt{13}$ is a unit in a quadratic field, in which $frac12(3+sqrt{13})$ is the fundamental unit.
      – Lord Shark the Unknown
      Nov 24 at 7:28















    up vote
    2
    down vote



    accepted










    Compute
    $$left(frac{3+sqrt{13}}2right)^3=18+5sqrt{13}.$$
    Therefore
    $$sqrt[3]{18+5sqrt{13}}=frac{3+sqrt{13}}2.$$
    Similarly
    $$sqrt[3]{pm 18pm 5sqrt{13}}=frac{pm 3pmsqrt{13}}2$$
    where the signs on both sides correspond. Then
    $$sqrt[3]{-18+ 5sqrt{13}}-sqrt[3]{-18-5sqrt{13}}
    =frac{-3+sqrt{13}}2+frac{-3-sqrt{13}}2=-3.$$






    share|cite|improve this answer

















    • 2




      How did you find the identity $(3+sqrt{13})^3 = 8(18 + 5 sqrt{13})$ a priori ? In particular, how one is supposed to come up with such identities ?
      – alxchen
      Nov 24 at 7:13






    • 3




      Well, $18+5sqrt{13}$ is a unit in a quadratic field, in which $frac12(3+sqrt{13})$ is the fundamental unit.
      – Lord Shark the Unknown
      Nov 24 at 7:28













    up vote
    2
    down vote



    accepted







    up vote
    2
    down vote



    accepted






    Compute
    $$left(frac{3+sqrt{13}}2right)^3=18+5sqrt{13}.$$
    Therefore
    $$sqrt[3]{18+5sqrt{13}}=frac{3+sqrt{13}}2.$$
    Similarly
    $$sqrt[3]{pm 18pm 5sqrt{13}}=frac{pm 3pmsqrt{13}}2$$
    where the signs on both sides correspond. Then
    $$sqrt[3]{-18+ 5sqrt{13}}-sqrt[3]{-18-5sqrt{13}}
    =frac{-3+sqrt{13}}2+frac{-3-sqrt{13}}2=-3.$$






    share|cite|improve this answer












    Compute
    $$left(frac{3+sqrt{13}}2right)^3=18+5sqrt{13}.$$
    Therefore
    $$sqrt[3]{18+5sqrt{13}}=frac{3+sqrt{13}}2.$$
    Similarly
    $$sqrt[3]{pm 18pm 5sqrt{13}}=frac{pm 3pmsqrt{13}}2$$
    where the signs on both sides correspond. Then
    $$sqrt[3]{-18+ 5sqrt{13}}-sqrt[3]{-18-5sqrt{13}}
    =frac{-3+sqrt{13}}2+frac{-3-sqrt{13}}2=-3.$$







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered Nov 24 at 6:06









    Lord Shark the Unknown

    100k958131




    100k958131








    • 2




      How did you find the identity $(3+sqrt{13})^3 = 8(18 + 5 sqrt{13})$ a priori ? In particular, how one is supposed to come up with such identities ?
      – alxchen
      Nov 24 at 7:13






    • 3




      Well, $18+5sqrt{13}$ is a unit in a quadratic field, in which $frac12(3+sqrt{13})$ is the fundamental unit.
      – Lord Shark the Unknown
      Nov 24 at 7:28














    • 2




      How did you find the identity $(3+sqrt{13})^3 = 8(18 + 5 sqrt{13})$ a priori ? In particular, how one is supposed to come up with such identities ?
      – alxchen
      Nov 24 at 7:13






    • 3




      Well, $18+5sqrt{13}$ is a unit in a quadratic field, in which $frac12(3+sqrt{13})$ is the fundamental unit.
      – Lord Shark the Unknown
      Nov 24 at 7:28








    2




    2




    How did you find the identity $(3+sqrt{13})^3 = 8(18 + 5 sqrt{13})$ a priori ? In particular, how one is supposed to come up with such identities ?
    – alxchen
    Nov 24 at 7:13




    How did you find the identity $(3+sqrt{13})^3 = 8(18 + 5 sqrt{13})$ a priori ? In particular, how one is supposed to come up with such identities ?
    – alxchen
    Nov 24 at 7:13




    3




    3




    Well, $18+5sqrt{13}$ is a unit in a quadratic field, in which $frac12(3+sqrt{13})$ is the fundamental unit.
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Nov 24 at 7:28




    Well, $18+5sqrt{13}$ is a unit in a quadratic field, in which $frac12(3+sqrt{13})$ is the fundamental unit.
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Nov 24 at 7:28










    up vote
    2
    down vote













    Let first root be $A$ and second be $B$, then we need to find the value of $A + B = x$




    1. $A^3 + B^3 = -36$

    2. $AB = -1$


    Expand the cube: $A^3 + B^3 = (A+B)*(A^2 - AB + B^2) = (A+B)*((A+B)^2-3AB) = x*(x^2+3) = x^3 + 3x = -36$.



    Easy guess $x = -3$





    Another approach: assume that you have a cube under the root, then, say, you take the right equation where you factor the minus out:
    $18 + 5sqrt{13} = (a+bsqrt{13})^3$



    Then you gotta solve the system of equations made from matching the summands with the $sqrt{13}$ and without:




    1. $a^3 + 39ab^2 = 18$

    2. $3a^2b + 13b^3 = 5$


    Wolfram yields $a = 1.5$ and $b = 0.5$, by hand calculations led me nowhere






    share|cite|improve this answer























    • This method is already given by OP in the question, I think
      – Kemono Chen
      Nov 24 at 6:14












    • edited with another approach
      – Makina
      Nov 24 at 6:26










    • Makina.Your first approach gives an idea where the cubic equation came from.+
      – Peter Szilas
      Nov 24 at 7:29















    up vote
    2
    down vote













    Let first root be $A$ and second be $B$, then we need to find the value of $A + B = x$




    1. $A^3 + B^3 = -36$

    2. $AB = -1$


    Expand the cube: $A^3 + B^3 = (A+B)*(A^2 - AB + B^2) = (A+B)*((A+B)^2-3AB) = x*(x^2+3) = x^3 + 3x = -36$.



    Easy guess $x = -3$





    Another approach: assume that you have a cube under the root, then, say, you take the right equation where you factor the minus out:
    $18 + 5sqrt{13} = (a+bsqrt{13})^3$



    Then you gotta solve the system of equations made from matching the summands with the $sqrt{13}$ and without:




    1. $a^3 + 39ab^2 = 18$

    2. $3a^2b + 13b^3 = 5$


    Wolfram yields $a = 1.5$ and $b = 0.5$, by hand calculations led me nowhere






    share|cite|improve this answer























    • This method is already given by OP in the question, I think
      – Kemono Chen
      Nov 24 at 6:14












    • edited with another approach
      – Makina
      Nov 24 at 6:26










    • Makina.Your first approach gives an idea where the cubic equation came from.+
      – Peter Szilas
      Nov 24 at 7:29













    up vote
    2
    down vote










    up vote
    2
    down vote









    Let first root be $A$ and second be $B$, then we need to find the value of $A + B = x$




    1. $A^3 + B^3 = -36$

    2. $AB = -1$


    Expand the cube: $A^3 + B^3 = (A+B)*(A^2 - AB + B^2) = (A+B)*((A+B)^2-3AB) = x*(x^2+3) = x^3 + 3x = -36$.



    Easy guess $x = -3$





    Another approach: assume that you have a cube under the root, then, say, you take the right equation where you factor the minus out:
    $18 + 5sqrt{13} = (a+bsqrt{13})^3$



    Then you gotta solve the system of equations made from matching the summands with the $sqrt{13}$ and without:




    1. $a^3 + 39ab^2 = 18$

    2. $3a^2b + 13b^3 = 5$


    Wolfram yields $a = 1.5$ and $b = 0.5$, by hand calculations led me nowhere






    share|cite|improve this answer














    Let first root be $A$ and second be $B$, then we need to find the value of $A + B = x$




    1. $A^3 + B^3 = -36$

    2. $AB = -1$


    Expand the cube: $A^3 + B^3 = (A+B)*(A^2 - AB + B^2) = (A+B)*((A+B)^2-3AB) = x*(x^2+3) = x^3 + 3x = -36$.



    Easy guess $x = -3$





    Another approach: assume that you have a cube under the root, then, say, you take the right equation where you factor the minus out:
    $18 + 5sqrt{13} = (a+bsqrt{13})^3$



    Then you gotta solve the system of equations made from matching the summands with the $sqrt{13}$ and without:




    1. $a^3 + 39ab^2 = 18$

    2. $3a^2b + 13b^3 = 5$


    Wolfram yields $a = 1.5$ and $b = 0.5$, by hand calculations led me nowhere







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Nov 24 at 6:26

























    answered Nov 24 at 6:13









    Makina

    1,058115




    1,058115












    • This method is already given by OP in the question, I think
      – Kemono Chen
      Nov 24 at 6:14












    • edited with another approach
      – Makina
      Nov 24 at 6:26










    • Makina.Your first approach gives an idea where the cubic equation came from.+
      – Peter Szilas
      Nov 24 at 7:29


















    • This method is already given by OP in the question, I think
      – Kemono Chen
      Nov 24 at 6:14












    • edited with another approach
      – Makina
      Nov 24 at 6:26










    • Makina.Your first approach gives an idea where the cubic equation came from.+
      – Peter Szilas
      Nov 24 at 7:29
















    This method is already given by OP in the question, I think
    – Kemono Chen
    Nov 24 at 6:14






    This method is already given by OP in the question, I think
    – Kemono Chen
    Nov 24 at 6:14














    edited with another approach
    – Makina
    Nov 24 at 6:26




    edited with another approach
    – Makina
    Nov 24 at 6:26












    Makina.Your first approach gives an idea where the cubic equation came from.+
    – Peter Szilas
    Nov 24 at 7:29




    Makina.Your first approach gives an idea where the cubic equation came from.+
    – Peter Szilas
    Nov 24 at 7:29










    up vote
    0
    down vote













    It helps a lot that we know the answer in advance! Otherwise, some lucky guesswork (or knowledge of algebraic number theory) is required.



    One can follow a quite similar line of reasoning to Rafael Bombelli (c.1526-1572). See Bombelli and the invention of complex numbers; or my answer to an earlier question here; or section 14.3, "Cubic Equations", of John Stillwell's book Mathematics and Its History (second edition 2002 - there is a third edition, which I don't have).



    We know that if $a$ and $b$ are rational, and $(a + bsqrt{13})^3 = c + dsqrt{13}$, then $(a - bsqrt{13})^3 = c - dsqrt{13}$. So it is a natural idea - and a much less "radical" leap than Bombelli's (if you'll pardon the pun) - to look for rational $a, b$ such that $(a + bsqrt{13})^3 = 18 + 5sqrt{13}$. Then we will have $sqrt[3]{18 + 5sqrt{13}} + sqrt[3]{18 - 5sqrt{13}} = 2a$.



    We know right away that $a = frac{3}{2}$. (Honesty compels me to admit that I initially overlooked this obvious fact!) Equating coefficients of the irrational number $sqrt{13}$ in the expanded version of either of the equations defining $a, b$, we have $a^3 + 39ab^2 = 18$, which simplifies to $frac{9}{4} + 39b^2 = 12$. Taking $b > 0$, for definiteness, we have $b = frac{1}{2}$. We now only
    need check that $3a^2b + 13b^3 = 5$, i.e. $3a^2 + 13b^2 = 10$, to see that the
    defining equations for $a, b$ are indeed satisfied.






    share|cite|improve this answer



























      up vote
      0
      down vote













      It helps a lot that we know the answer in advance! Otherwise, some lucky guesswork (or knowledge of algebraic number theory) is required.



      One can follow a quite similar line of reasoning to Rafael Bombelli (c.1526-1572). See Bombelli and the invention of complex numbers; or my answer to an earlier question here; or section 14.3, "Cubic Equations", of John Stillwell's book Mathematics and Its History (second edition 2002 - there is a third edition, which I don't have).



      We know that if $a$ and $b$ are rational, and $(a + bsqrt{13})^3 = c + dsqrt{13}$, then $(a - bsqrt{13})^3 = c - dsqrt{13}$. So it is a natural idea - and a much less "radical" leap than Bombelli's (if you'll pardon the pun) - to look for rational $a, b$ such that $(a + bsqrt{13})^3 = 18 + 5sqrt{13}$. Then we will have $sqrt[3]{18 + 5sqrt{13}} + sqrt[3]{18 - 5sqrt{13}} = 2a$.



      We know right away that $a = frac{3}{2}$. (Honesty compels me to admit that I initially overlooked this obvious fact!) Equating coefficients of the irrational number $sqrt{13}$ in the expanded version of either of the equations defining $a, b$, we have $a^3 + 39ab^2 = 18$, which simplifies to $frac{9}{4} + 39b^2 = 12$. Taking $b > 0$, for definiteness, we have $b = frac{1}{2}$. We now only
      need check that $3a^2b + 13b^3 = 5$, i.e. $3a^2 + 13b^2 = 10$, to see that the
      defining equations for $a, b$ are indeed satisfied.






      share|cite|improve this answer

























        up vote
        0
        down vote










        up vote
        0
        down vote









        It helps a lot that we know the answer in advance! Otherwise, some lucky guesswork (or knowledge of algebraic number theory) is required.



        One can follow a quite similar line of reasoning to Rafael Bombelli (c.1526-1572). See Bombelli and the invention of complex numbers; or my answer to an earlier question here; or section 14.3, "Cubic Equations", of John Stillwell's book Mathematics and Its History (second edition 2002 - there is a third edition, which I don't have).



        We know that if $a$ and $b$ are rational, and $(a + bsqrt{13})^3 = c + dsqrt{13}$, then $(a - bsqrt{13})^3 = c - dsqrt{13}$. So it is a natural idea - and a much less "radical" leap than Bombelli's (if you'll pardon the pun) - to look for rational $a, b$ such that $(a + bsqrt{13})^3 = 18 + 5sqrt{13}$. Then we will have $sqrt[3]{18 + 5sqrt{13}} + sqrt[3]{18 - 5sqrt{13}} = 2a$.



        We know right away that $a = frac{3}{2}$. (Honesty compels me to admit that I initially overlooked this obvious fact!) Equating coefficients of the irrational number $sqrt{13}$ in the expanded version of either of the equations defining $a, b$, we have $a^3 + 39ab^2 = 18$, which simplifies to $frac{9}{4} + 39b^2 = 12$. Taking $b > 0$, for definiteness, we have $b = frac{1}{2}$. We now only
        need check that $3a^2b + 13b^3 = 5$, i.e. $3a^2 + 13b^2 = 10$, to see that the
        defining equations for $a, b$ are indeed satisfied.






        share|cite|improve this answer














        It helps a lot that we know the answer in advance! Otherwise, some lucky guesswork (or knowledge of algebraic number theory) is required.



        One can follow a quite similar line of reasoning to Rafael Bombelli (c.1526-1572). See Bombelli and the invention of complex numbers; or my answer to an earlier question here; or section 14.3, "Cubic Equations", of John Stillwell's book Mathematics and Its History (second edition 2002 - there is a third edition, which I don't have).



        We know that if $a$ and $b$ are rational, and $(a + bsqrt{13})^3 = c + dsqrt{13}$, then $(a - bsqrt{13})^3 = c - dsqrt{13}$. So it is a natural idea - and a much less "radical" leap than Bombelli's (if you'll pardon the pun) - to look for rational $a, b$ such that $(a + bsqrt{13})^3 = 18 + 5sqrt{13}$. Then we will have $sqrt[3]{18 + 5sqrt{13}} + sqrt[3]{18 - 5sqrt{13}} = 2a$.



        We know right away that $a = frac{3}{2}$. (Honesty compels me to admit that I initially overlooked this obvious fact!) Equating coefficients of the irrational number $sqrt{13}$ in the expanded version of either of the equations defining $a, b$, we have $a^3 + 39ab^2 = 18$, which simplifies to $frac{9}{4} + 39b^2 = 12$. Taking $b > 0$, for definiteness, we have $b = frac{1}{2}$. We now only
        need check that $3a^2b + 13b^3 = 5$, i.e. $3a^2 + 13b^2 = 10$, to see that the
        defining equations for $a, b$ are indeed satisfied.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited Nov 25 at 9:23

























        answered Nov 24 at 20:21









        Calum Gilhooley

        4,097529




        4,097529






























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