Apparent inconsistency of Lebesgue measure












28












$begingroup$


Studying the Lebesgue measure on the line I've found the following argument which concludes that $m(mathbb{R}) < +infty$ (where $m$ denotes the Lebesgue measure on $mathbb{R}$). Obviously it must be flawed, but I haven't been able to find the flaw so far.





Recall that for a Lebesgue measurable set $A$ we have by definition that
$$
m(A)=infleft{sum_{n=1}^infty(b_n-a_n):cup_{n=1}^infty(a_n,b_n]supset Aright}.
$$

Pick your favorite summable sequence of positive terms, ${a_n=1/n^2}_{n=1}^infty$ for instance. We know the rational numbers are countable, so we can index them in a sequence ${q_n}_{n=1}^infty$. Now consider the intervals
$$
I_n=left(q_n-frac{a_n}{2},q_n+frac{a_n}{2}right].
$$

As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subsetcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$ but then, having into account the definition of Lebesgue measure we have
$$
m(mathbb{R})leqsum_{n=1}^inftyleft(big(q_n+frac{a_n}{2}big)-big(q_n-frac{a_n}{2}big)right)=sum_{n=1}^infty a_n<+infty.
$$

For instance with $a_n=1/n^2$ we get $m(mathbb{R})leqpi^2/6$.





As I said, I know this is flawed but I've spent almost two hours trying to find the flaw so any help would be appreciated!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 7




    $begingroup$
    This strange set you constructed is discussed in this video. It is known for its paradoxical property of being of finite measure, but having all rationals as inner points. Still, it is not all of $Bbb R$.
    $endgroup$
    – M. Winter
    Sep 11 '17 at 17:14








  • 8




    $begingroup$
    A closed subset of $mathbb{R}$ containing all rational numbers must equal $mathbb{R}$ itself. Without closedness, however, nothing can be said. You have just constructed one such non-trivial example.
    $endgroup$
    – Sangchul Lee
    Sep 11 '17 at 17:22






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @SangchulLee This should be the answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Zach Boyd
    Sep 11 '17 at 17:30










  • $begingroup$
    @ZachBoyd, I tried to improve it to an answer :)
    $endgroup$
    – Sangchul Lee
    Sep 11 '17 at 18:20










  • $begingroup$
    @M.Winter Thank you your comment/answer and thank you for the video too, I've found it really instructive and interesting!! :)
    $endgroup$
    – Jonatan B. Bastos
    Sep 11 '17 at 18:43
















28












$begingroup$


Studying the Lebesgue measure on the line I've found the following argument which concludes that $m(mathbb{R}) < +infty$ (where $m$ denotes the Lebesgue measure on $mathbb{R}$). Obviously it must be flawed, but I haven't been able to find the flaw so far.





Recall that for a Lebesgue measurable set $A$ we have by definition that
$$
m(A)=infleft{sum_{n=1}^infty(b_n-a_n):cup_{n=1}^infty(a_n,b_n]supset Aright}.
$$

Pick your favorite summable sequence of positive terms, ${a_n=1/n^2}_{n=1}^infty$ for instance. We know the rational numbers are countable, so we can index them in a sequence ${q_n}_{n=1}^infty$. Now consider the intervals
$$
I_n=left(q_n-frac{a_n}{2},q_n+frac{a_n}{2}right].
$$

As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subsetcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$ but then, having into account the definition of Lebesgue measure we have
$$
m(mathbb{R})leqsum_{n=1}^inftyleft(big(q_n+frac{a_n}{2}big)-big(q_n-frac{a_n}{2}big)right)=sum_{n=1}^infty a_n<+infty.
$$

For instance with $a_n=1/n^2$ we get $m(mathbb{R})leqpi^2/6$.





As I said, I know this is flawed but I've spent almost two hours trying to find the flaw so any help would be appreciated!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 7




    $begingroup$
    This strange set you constructed is discussed in this video. It is known for its paradoxical property of being of finite measure, but having all rationals as inner points. Still, it is not all of $Bbb R$.
    $endgroup$
    – M. Winter
    Sep 11 '17 at 17:14








  • 8




    $begingroup$
    A closed subset of $mathbb{R}$ containing all rational numbers must equal $mathbb{R}$ itself. Without closedness, however, nothing can be said. You have just constructed one such non-trivial example.
    $endgroup$
    – Sangchul Lee
    Sep 11 '17 at 17:22






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @SangchulLee This should be the answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Zach Boyd
    Sep 11 '17 at 17:30










  • $begingroup$
    @ZachBoyd, I tried to improve it to an answer :)
    $endgroup$
    – Sangchul Lee
    Sep 11 '17 at 18:20










  • $begingroup$
    @M.Winter Thank you your comment/answer and thank you for the video too, I've found it really instructive and interesting!! :)
    $endgroup$
    – Jonatan B. Bastos
    Sep 11 '17 at 18:43














28












28








28


8



$begingroup$


Studying the Lebesgue measure on the line I've found the following argument which concludes that $m(mathbb{R}) < +infty$ (where $m$ denotes the Lebesgue measure on $mathbb{R}$). Obviously it must be flawed, but I haven't been able to find the flaw so far.





Recall that for a Lebesgue measurable set $A$ we have by definition that
$$
m(A)=infleft{sum_{n=1}^infty(b_n-a_n):cup_{n=1}^infty(a_n,b_n]supset Aright}.
$$

Pick your favorite summable sequence of positive terms, ${a_n=1/n^2}_{n=1}^infty$ for instance. We know the rational numbers are countable, so we can index them in a sequence ${q_n}_{n=1}^infty$. Now consider the intervals
$$
I_n=left(q_n-frac{a_n}{2},q_n+frac{a_n}{2}right].
$$

As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subsetcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$ but then, having into account the definition of Lebesgue measure we have
$$
m(mathbb{R})leqsum_{n=1}^inftyleft(big(q_n+frac{a_n}{2}big)-big(q_n-frac{a_n}{2}big)right)=sum_{n=1}^infty a_n<+infty.
$$

For instance with $a_n=1/n^2$ we get $m(mathbb{R})leqpi^2/6$.





As I said, I know this is flawed but I've spent almost two hours trying to find the flaw so any help would be appreciated!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Studying the Lebesgue measure on the line I've found the following argument which concludes that $m(mathbb{R}) < +infty$ (where $m$ denotes the Lebesgue measure on $mathbb{R}$). Obviously it must be flawed, but I haven't been able to find the flaw so far.





Recall that for a Lebesgue measurable set $A$ we have by definition that
$$
m(A)=infleft{sum_{n=1}^infty(b_n-a_n):cup_{n=1}^infty(a_n,b_n]supset Aright}.
$$

Pick your favorite summable sequence of positive terms, ${a_n=1/n^2}_{n=1}^infty$ for instance. We know the rational numbers are countable, so we can index them in a sequence ${q_n}_{n=1}^infty$. Now consider the intervals
$$
I_n=left(q_n-frac{a_n}{2},q_n+frac{a_n}{2}right].
$$

As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subsetcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$ but then, having into account the definition of Lebesgue measure we have
$$
m(mathbb{R})leqsum_{n=1}^inftyleft(big(q_n+frac{a_n}{2}big)-big(q_n-frac{a_n}{2}big)right)=sum_{n=1}^infty a_n<+infty.
$$

For instance with $a_n=1/n^2$ we get $m(mathbb{R})leqpi^2/6$.





As I said, I know this is flawed but I've spent almost two hours trying to find the flaw so any help would be appreciated!







measure-theory lebesgue-measure fake-proofs






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share|cite|improve this question













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edited Dec 25 '18 at 13:31









Namaste

1




1










asked Sep 11 '17 at 17:08









Jonatan B. BastosJonatan B. Bastos

1,001615




1,001615








  • 7




    $begingroup$
    This strange set you constructed is discussed in this video. It is known for its paradoxical property of being of finite measure, but having all rationals as inner points. Still, it is not all of $Bbb R$.
    $endgroup$
    – M. Winter
    Sep 11 '17 at 17:14








  • 8




    $begingroup$
    A closed subset of $mathbb{R}$ containing all rational numbers must equal $mathbb{R}$ itself. Without closedness, however, nothing can be said. You have just constructed one such non-trivial example.
    $endgroup$
    – Sangchul Lee
    Sep 11 '17 at 17:22






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @SangchulLee This should be the answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Zach Boyd
    Sep 11 '17 at 17:30










  • $begingroup$
    @ZachBoyd, I tried to improve it to an answer :)
    $endgroup$
    – Sangchul Lee
    Sep 11 '17 at 18:20










  • $begingroup$
    @M.Winter Thank you your comment/answer and thank you for the video too, I've found it really instructive and interesting!! :)
    $endgroup$
    – Jonatan B. Bastos
    Sep 11 '17 at 18:43














  • 7




    $begingroup$
    This strange set you constructed is discussed in this video. It is known for its paradoxical property of being of finite measure, but having all rationals as inner points. Still, it is not all of $Bbb R$.
    $endgroup$
    – M. Winter
    Sep 11 '17 at 17:14








  • 8




    $begingroup$
    A closed subset of $mathbb{R}$ containing all rational numbers must equal $mathbb{R}$ itself. Without closedness, however, nothing can be said. You have just constructed one such non-trivial example.
    $endgroup$
    – Sangchul Lee
    Sep 11 '17 at 17:22






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @SangchulLee This should be the answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Zach Boyd
    Sep 11 '17 at 17:30










  • $begingroup$
    @ZachBoyd, I tried to improve it to an answer :)
    $endgroup$
    – Sangchul Lee
    Sep 11 '17 at 18:20










  • $begingroup$
    @M.Winter Thank you your comment/answer and thank you for the video too, I've found it really instructive and interesting!! :)
    $endgroup$
    – Jonatan B. Bastos
    Sep 11 '17 at 18:43








7




7




$begingroup$
This strange set you constructed is discussed in this video. It is known for its paradoxical property of being of finite measure, but having all rationals as inner points. Still, it is not all of $Bbb R$.
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Sep 11 '17 at 17:14






$begingroup$
This strange set you constructed is discussed in this video. It is known for its paradoxical property of being of finite measure, but having all rationals as inner points. Still, it is not all of $Bbb R$.
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Sep 11 '17 at 17:14






8




8




$begingroup$
A closed subset of $mathbb{R}$ containing all rational numbers must equal $mathbb{R}$ itself. Without closedness, however, nothing can be said. You have just constructed one such non-trivial example.
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 17:22




$begingroup$
A closed subset of $mathbb{R}$ containing all rational numbers must equal $mathbb{R}$ itself. Without closedness, however, nothing can be said. You have just constructed one such non-trivial example.
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 17:22




1




1




$begingroup$
@SangchulLee This should be the answer.
$endgroup$
– Zach Boyd
Sep 11 '17 at 17:30




$begingroup$
@SangchulLee This should be the answer.
$endgroup$
– Zach Boyd
Sep 11 '17 at 17:30












$begingroup$
@ZachBoyd, I tried to improve it to an answer :)
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 18:20




$begingroup$
@ZachBoyd, I tried to improve it to an answer :)
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
Sep 11 '17 at 18:20












$begingroup$
@M.Winter Thank you your comment/answer and thank you for the video too, I've found it really instructive and interesting!! :)
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:43




$begingroup$
@M.Winter Thank you your comment/answer and thank you for the video too, I've found it really instructive and interesting!! :)
$endgroup$
– Jonatan B. Bastos
Sep 11 '17 at 18:43










4 Answers
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active

oldest

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"As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subset bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$."




This is false. Pick your favorite irrational number $x$. For every $n$, there exist infinitely many rationals $q_m$ such that $q_m$ is within $a_n/2$ of $x$. But the least such $m$ may be much larger than $n$. In particular, it does not follow that there exists some $n$ such that $x$ is within $a_n/2$ of $q_n$, which is what is necessary to have $xin bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$





















    14












    $begingroup$

    One can explicitly demonstrate the failure of the argument for $mathbb R_+$. Generalize to $mathbb R$ as needed.



    Consider the following maps $f:mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb N_+$ and $g: mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb Q_+$
    begin{eqnarray}
    f({k,m}) &=& (k + m - 2 )(k + m - 1) + m \
    g({k,m}) &=& k/m.
    end{eqnarray}
    You can verify that $f$ is a bijection and $g$ is onto, and thus $h(n) = g(f^{-1}(n))$ maps from $mathbb N_+$ onto a dense subset of $mathbb R_+$. Now consider the set
    $$
    U = bigcup_{n=1}^infty left(h(n) - frac{a_n}{2},h(n) + frac{a_n}{2}right).
    $$
    Using the sequence ${a_n = n^{-2}}_{n=1}^infty$, I can prove $phi = (1+sqrt{5})/2notin U$.



    First, note that $h$ orders the ratios $k/m$ first by increasing $k+m$, then by increasing $m$. Because of this, if $h(n)$ is a continued fraction convergent of $phi$, then $|h(n') - phi| > |h(n) - phi|$ for all $n' < n$. The continued fraction convergents of $phi$ are of the form $F_{i+1}/F_i$, where $F_i$ are Fibonnaci numbers, and occur when $n_i = (F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 2)(F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 1)/2 + F_{i}ge F_{i}F_{i+1}$. One can prove from the Fibonacci formula that the error on these convergents is always larger than $0.4F_{i}^2$.



    Now consider $n_i le n < n_{i+1}$. Then we have $a_n = n^{-2} le n_i^{-2}le F_{i}^{-2}F_{i+1}^{-2}$ and $|h(n) - phi| > |h(n_{i+1})-phi| > 0.4 F_{i+1}^{-2}$. If $phiin U$, there must be an $n$ with $|h(n) - phi| < a_n/2$ for some $n$. This would then imply $0.4 < F_{i}^{-2}/2$, which can only be satisfied for $F_i = 1$. Thus such an $n$ would have to satisfy $n < n_3 = 8$. Since it can be checked that none of these works, $phi notin U$.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$









    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Wow! I really appreciate the effort in writing this concrete example, and that's why I am upvoting this, but you didn't need to post another answer since the existing ones already addressed my question completely. In particular my fake proof above shows that $cup_nI_n$ doesn't contain the real line by contradiction. I hope this answer helps future readers who want specific examples though.
      $endgroup$
      – Jonatan B. Bastos
      Sep 12 '17 at 2:48








    • 5




      $begingroup$
      I have a fondness for disproof by constructing counterexamples. It feels more concrete than a proof by contradiction. Also, upon further reflection, I have a suspicion that when using $h$ to index the rationals and assuming $a_n$ is monotone, $phi in U$ implies $sum_{n=1}^infty a_n = infty$. That sounds hard to prove, though.
      $endgroup$
      – eyeballfrog
      Sep 12 '17 at 6:04





















    12












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    (Extended from a comment) Recall that a subset $mathcal{D}$ of $mathbb{R}$ is called dense if its closure $bar{mathcal{D}}$ is all of $mathbb{R}$. From this definition, you can readily check that the followings are equivalent for dense subsets $mathcal{D} subset mathbb{R}$:



    $$ text{$mathcal{D}$ is closed in $mathbb{R}$} qquad Leftrightarrow qquad text{$mathcal{D} = mathbb{R}$}. $$



    In particular, you can't tell much how porous your set $mathcal{D}$ will be only by knowing the density of $mathcal{D}$. There are lots of dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ which is not closed (and hence not all of $mathbb{R})$.



    Example. If we pick a sequence $(r_n)_{n=1}^{infty}$ of positive numbers satisfying $sum_{n=1}^{infty} r_n < infty$, then



    $$ U = bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} (q_n - r_n, q_n + r_n)$$



    is an open set such that $mathbb{Q} subset U$ but $operatorname{Leb}(U) leq sum_{n=1}^{infty} 2r_n < infty$. So there are open dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ with finite length. Notice also that $operatorname{Leb}(U)$ can be made arbitrarily small by choosing suitable $(r_n)$. Another interesting feature of this example is that the boundary $partial U$ has infinite length! In this way, you may think of $U$ as tiny pores of a highly porous material, such as a sponge.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$









    • 1




      $begingroup$
      (+1) Thank you for your comment and answer, I've found them really helpful! I accepted Alex Kruckman's answer though because he gets exactly to the point I was missing, and because we're only allowed to accept one answer. :(
      $endgroup$
      – Jonatan B. Bastos
      Sep 11 '17 at 18:29



















    8












    $begingroup$

    The rationals are all contained in $bigcup I_n$ but not all irrationals
    are.






    share|cite|improve this answer









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      4 Answers
      4






      active

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      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

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      active

      oldest

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      active

      oldest

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      36












      $begingroup$


      "As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subset bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$."




      This is false. Pick your favorite irrational number $x$. For every $n$, there exist infinitely many rationals $q_m$ such that $q_m$ is within $a_n/2$ of $x$. But the least such $m$ may be much larger than $n$. In particular, it does not follow that there exists some $n$ such that $x$ is within $a_n/2$ of $q_n$, which is what is necessary to have $xin bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$


















        36












        $begingroup$


        "As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subset bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$."




        This is false. Pick your favorite irrational number $x$. For every $n$, there exist infinitely many rationals $q_m$ such that $q_m$ is within $a_n/2$ of $x$. But the least such $m$ may be much larger than $n$. In particular, it does not follow that there exists some $n$ such that $x$ is within $a_n/2$ of $q_n$, which is what is necessary to have $xin bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$
















          36












          36








          36





          $begingroup$


          "As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subset bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$."




          This is false. Pick your favorite irrational number $x$. For every $n$, there exist infinitely many rationals $q_m$ such that $q_m$ is within $a_n/2$ of $x$. But the least such $m$ may be much larger than $n$. In particular, it does not follow that there exists some $n$ such that $x$ is within $a_n/2$ of $q_n$, which is what is necessary to have $xin bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$




          "As the rationals are dense in $mathbb{R}$ we must have $mathbb{R}subset bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$."




          This is false. Pick your favorite irrational number $x$. For every $n$, there exist infinitely many rationals $q_m$ such that $q_m$ is within $a_n/2$ of $x$. But the least such $m$ may be much larger than $n$. In particular, it does not follow that there exists some $n$ such that $x$ is within $a_n/2$ of $q_n$, which is what is necessary to have $xin bigcup_{n=1}^infty I_n$.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Dec 25 '18 at 13:33









          Namaste

          1




          1










          answered Sep 11 '17 at 17:10









          Alex KruckmanAlex Kruckman

          28k32658




          28k32658























              14












              $begingroup$

              One can explicitly demonstrate the failure of the argument for $mathbb R_+$. Generalize to $mathbb R$ as needed.



              Consider the following maps $f:mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb N_+$ and $g: mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb Q_+$
              begin{eqnarray}
              f({k,m}) &=& (k + m - 2 )(k + m - 1) + m \
              g({k,m}) &=& k/m.
              end{eqnarray}
              You can verify that $f$ is a bijection and $g$ is onto, and thus $h(n) = g(f^{-1}(n))$ maps from $mathbb N_+$ onto a dense subset of $mathbb R_+$. Now consider the set
              $$
              U = bigcup_{n=1}^infty left(h(n) - frac{a_n}{2},h(n) + frac{a_n}{2}right).
              $$
              Using the sequence ${a_n = n^{-2}}_{n=1}^infty$, I can prove $phi = (1+sqrt{5})/2notin U$.



              First, note that $h$ orders the ratios $k/m$ first by increasing $k+m$, then by increasing $m$. Because of this, if $h(n)$ is a continued fraction convergent of $phi$, then $|h(n') - phi| > |h(n) - phi|$ for all $n' < n$. The continued fraction convergents of $phi$ are of the form $F_{i+1}/F_i$, where $F_i$ are Fibonnaci numbers, and occur when $n_i = (F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 2)(F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 1)/2 + F_{i}ge F_{i}F_{i+1}$. One can prove from the Fibonacci formula that the error on these convergents is always larger than $0.4F_{i}^2$.



              Now consider $n_i le n < n_{i+1}$. Then we have $a_n = n^{-2} le n_i^{-2}le F_{i}^{-2}F_{i+1}^{-2}$ and $|h(n) - phi| > |h(n_{i+1})-phi| > 0.4 F_{i+1}^{-2}$. If $phiin U$, there must be an $n$ with $|h(n) - phi| < a_n/2$ for some $n$. This would then imply $0.4 < F_{i}^{-2}/2$, which can only be satisfied for $F_i = 1$. Thus such an $n$ would have to satisfy $n < n_3 = 8$. Since it can be checked that none of these works, $phi notin U$.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Wow! I really appreciate the effort in writing this concrete example, and that's why I am upvoting this, but you didn't need to post another answer since the existing ones already addressed my question completely. In particular my fake proof above shows that $cup_nI_n$ doesn't contain the real line by contradiction. I hope this answer helps future readers who want specific examples though.
                $endgroup$
                – Jonatan B. Bastos
                Sep 12 '17 at 2:48








              • 5




                $begingroup$
                I have a fondness for disproof by constructing counterexamples. It feels more concrete than a proof by contradiction. Also, upon further reflection, I have a suspicion that when using $h$ to index the rationals and assuming $a_n$ is monotone, $phi in U$ implies $sum_{n=1}^infty a_n = infty$. That sounds hard to prove, though.
                $endgroup$
                – eyeballfrog
                Sep 12 '17 at 6:04


















              14












              $begingroup$

              One can explicitly demonstrate the failure of the argument for $mathbb R_+$. Generalize to $mathbb R$ as needed.



              Consider the following maps $f:mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb N_+$ and $g: mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb Q_+$
              begin{eqnarray}
              f({k,m}) &=& (k + m - 2 )(k + m - 1) + m \
              g({k,m}) &=& k/m.
              end{eqnarray}
              You can verify that $f$ is a bijection and $g$ is onto, and thus $h(n) = g(f^{-1}(n))$ maps from $mathbb N_+$ onto a dense subset of $mathbb R_+$. Now consider the set
              $$
              U = bigcup_{n=1}^infty left(h(n) - frac{a_n}{2},h(n) + frac{a_n}{2}right).
              $$
              Using the sequence ${a_n = n^{-2}}_{n=1}^infty$, I can prove $phi = (1+sqrt{5})/2notin U$.



              First, note that $h$ orders the ratios $k/m$ first by increasing $k+m$, then by increasing $m$. Because of this, if $h(n)$ is a continued fraction convergent of $phi$, then $|h(n') - phi| > |h(n) - phi|$ for all $n' < n$. The continued fraction convergents of $phi$ are of the form $F_{i+1}/F_i$, where $F_i$ are Fibonnaci numbers, and occur when $n_i = (F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 2)(F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 1)/2 + F_{i}ge F_{i}F_{i+1}$. One can prove from the Fibonacci formula that the error on these convergents is always larger than $0.4F_{i}^2$.



              Now consider $n_i le n < n_{i+1}$. Then we have $a_n = n^{-2} le n_i^{-2}le F_{i}^{-2}F_{i+1}^{-2}$ and $|h(n) - phi| > |h(n_{i+1})-phi| > 0.4 F_{i+1}^{-2}$. If $phiin U$, there must be an $n$ with $|h(n) - phi| < a_n/2$ for some $n$. This would then imply $0.4 < F_{i}^{-2}/2$, which can only be satisfied for $F_i = 1$. Thus such an $n$ would have to satisfy $n < n_3 = 8$. Since it can be checked that none of these works, $phi notin U$.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Wow! I really appreciate the effort in writing this concrete example, and that's why I am upvoting this, but you didn't need to post another answer since the existing ones already addressed my question completely. In particular my fake proof above shows that $cup_nI_n$ doesn't contain the real line by contradiction. I hope this answer helps future readers who want specific examples though.
                $endgroup$
                – Jonatan B. Bastos
                Sep 12 '17 at 2:48








              • 5




                $begingroup$
                I have a fondness for disproof by constructing counterexamples. It feels more concrete than a proof by contradiction. Also, upon further reflection, I have a suspicion that when using $h$ to index the rationals and assuming $a_n$ is monotone, $phi in U$ implies $sum_{n=1}^infty a_n = infty$. That sounds hard to prove, though.
                $endgroup$
                – eyeballfrog
                Sep 12 '17 at 6:04
















              14












              14








              14





              $begingroup$

              One can explicitly demonstrate the failure of the argument for $mathbb R_+$. Generalize to $mathbb R$ as needed.



              Consider the following maps $f:mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb N_+$ and $g: mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb Q_+$
              begin{eqnarray}
              f({k,m}) &=& (k + m - 2 )(k + m - 1) + m \
              g({k,m}) &=& k/m.
              end{eqnarray}
              You can verify that $f$ is a bijection and $g$ is onto, and thus $h(n) = g(f^{-1}(n))$ maps from $mathbb N_+$ onto a dense subset of $mathbb R_+$. Now consider the set
              $$
              U = bigcup_{n=1}^infty left(h(n) - frac{a_n}{2},h(n) + frac{a_n}{2}right).
              $$
              Using the sequence ${a_n = n^{-2}}_{n=1}^infty$, I can prove $phi = (1+sqrt{5})/2notin U$.



              First, note that $h$ orders the ratios $k/m$ first by increasing $k+m$, then by increasing $m$. Because of this, if $h(n)$ is a continued fraction convergent of $phi$, then $|h(n') - phi| > |h(n) - phi|$ for all $n' < n$. The continued fraction convergents of $phi$ are of the form $F_{i+1}/F_i$, where $F_i$ are Fibonnaci numbers, and occur when $n_i = (F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 2)(F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 1)/2 + F_{i}ge F_{i}F_{i+1}$. One can prove from the Fibonacci formula that the error on these convergents is always larger than $0.4F_{i}^2$.



              Now consider $n_i le n < n_{i+1}$. Then we have $a_n = n^{-2} le n_i^{-2}le F_{i}^{-2}F_{i+1}^{-2}$ and $|h(n) - phi| > |h(n_{i+1})-phi| > 0.4 F_{i+1}^{-2}$. If $phiin U$, there must be an $n$ with $|h(n) - phi| < a_n/2$ for some $n$. This would then imply $0.4 < F_{i}^{-2}/2$, which can only be satisfied for $F_i = 1$. Thus such an $n$ would have to satisfy $n < n_3 = 8$. Since it can be checked that none of these works, $phi notin U$.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              One can explicitly demonstrate the failure of the argument for $mathbb R_+$. Generalize to $mathbb R$ as needed.



              Consider the following maps $f:mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb N_+$ and $g: mathbb N_+^2 rightarrow mathbb Q_+$
              begin{eqnarray}
              f({k,m}) &=& (k + m - 2 )(k + m - 1) + m \
              g({k,m}) &=& k/m.
              end{eqnarray}
              You can verify that $f$ is a bijection and $g$ is onto, and thus $h(n) = g(f^{-1}(n))$ maps from $mathbb N_+$ onto a dense subset of $mathbb R_+$. Now consider the set
              $$
              U = bigcup_{n=1}^infty left(h(n) - frac{a_n}{2},h(n) + frac{a_n}{2}right).
              $$
              Using the sequence ${a_n = n^{-2}}_{n=1}^infty$, I can prove $phi = (1+sqrt{5})/2notin U$.



              First, note that $h$ orders the ratios $k/m$ first by increasing $k+m$, then by increasing $m$. Because of this, if $h(n)$ is a continued fraction convergent of $phi$, then $|h(n') - phi| > |h(n) - phi|$ for all $n' < n$. The continued fraction convergents of $phi$ are of the form $F_{i+1}/F_i$, where $F_i$ are Fibonnaci numbers, and occur when $n_i = (F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 2)(F_{i+1} + F_{i} - 1)/2 + F_{i}ge F_{i}F_{i+1}$. One can prove from the Fibonacci formula that the error on these convergents is always larger than $0.4F_{i}^2$.



              Now consider $n_i le n < n_{i+1}$. Then we have $a_n = n^{-2} le n_i^{-2}le F_{i}^{-2}F_{i+1}^{-2}$ and $|h(n) - phi| > |h(n_{i+1})-phi| > 0.4 F_{i+1}^{-2}$. If $phiin U$, there must be an $n$ with $|h(n) - phi| < a_n/2$ for some $n$. This would then imply $0.4 < F_{i}^{-2}/2$, which can only be satisfied for $F_i = 1$. Thus such an $n$ would have to satisfy $n < n_3 = 8$. Since it can be checked that none of these works, $phi notin U$.







              share|cite|improve this answer












              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered Sep 12 '17 at 1:05









              eyeballfrogeyeballfrog

              6,456629




              6,456629








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Wow! I really appreciate the effort in writing this concrete example, and that's why I am upvoting this, but you didn't need to post another answer since the existing ones already addressed my question completely. In particular my fake proof above shows that $cup_nI_n$ doesn't contain the real line by contradiction. I hope this answer helps future readers who want specific examples though.
                $endgroup$
                – Jonatan B. Bastos
                Sep 12 '17 at 2:48








              • 5




                $begingroup$
                I have a fondness for disproof by constructing counterexamples. It feels more concrete than a proof by contradiction. Also, upon further reflection, I have a suspicion that when using $h$ to index the rationals and assuming $a_n$ is monotone, $phi in U$ implies $sum_{n=1}^infty a_n = infty$. That sounds hard to prove, though.
                $endgroup$
                – eyeballfrog
                Sep 12 '17 at 6:04
















              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Wow! I really appreciate the effort in writing this concrete example, and that's why I am upvoting this, but you didn't need to post another answer since the existing ones already addressed my question completely. In particular my fake proof above shows that $cup_nI_n$ doesn't contain the real line by contradiction. I hope this answer helps future readers who want specific examples though.
                $endgroup$
                – Jonatan B. Bastos
                Sep 12 '17 at 2:48








              • 5




                $begingroup$
                I have a fondness for disproof by constructing counterexamples. It feels more concrete than a proof by contradiction. Also, upon further reflection, I have a suspicion that when using $h$ to index the rationals and assuming $a_n$ is monotone, $phi in U$ implies $sum_{n=1}^infty a_n = infty$. That sounds hard to prove, though.
                $endgroup$
                – eyeballfrog
                Sep 12 '17 at 6:04










              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              Wow! I really appreciate the effort in writing this concrete example, and that's why I am upvoting this, but you didn't need to post another answer since the existing ones already addressed my question completely. In particular my fake proof above shows that $cup_nI_n$ doesn't contain the real line by contradiction. I hope this answer helps future readers who want specific examples though.
              $endgroup$
              – Jonatan B. Bastos
              Sep 12 '17 at 2:48






              $begingroup$
              Wow! I really appreciate the effort in writing this concrete example, and that's why I am upvoting this, but you didn't need to post another answer since the existing ones already addressed my question completely. In particular my fake proof above shows that $cup_nI_n$ doesn't contain the real line by contradiction. I hope this answer helps future readers who want specific examples though.
              $endgroup$
              – Jonatan B. Bastos
              Sep 12 '17 at 2:48






              5




              5




              $begingroup$
              I have a fondness for disproof by constructing counterexamples. It feels more concrete than a proof by contradiction. Also, upon further reflection, I have a suspicion that when using $h$ to index the rationals and assuming $a_n$ is monotone, $phi in U$ implies $sum_{n=1}^infty a_n = infty$. That sounds hard to prove, though.
              $endgroup$
              – eyeballfrog
              Sep 12 '17 at 6:04






              $begingroup$
              I have a fondness for disproof by constructing counterexamples. It feels more concrete than a proof by contradiction. Also, upon further reflection, I have a suspicion that when using $h$ to index the rationals and assuming $a_n$ is monotone, $phi in U$ implies $sum_{n=1}^infty a_n = infty$. That sounds hard to prove, though.
              $endgroup$
              – eyeballfrog
              Sep 12 '17 at 6:04













              12












              $begingroup$

              (Extended from a comment) Recall that a subset $mathcal{D}$ of $mathbb{R}$ is called dense if its closure $bar{mathcal{D}}$ is all of $mathbb{R}$. From this definition, you can readily check that the followings are equivalent for dense subsets $mathcal{D} subset mathbb{R}$:



              $$ text{$mathcal{D}$ is closed in $mathbb{R}$} qquad Leftrightarrow qquad text{$mathcal{D} = mathbb{R}$}. $$



              In particular, you can't tell much how porous your set $mathcal{D}$ will be only by knowing the density of $mathcal{D}$. There are lots of dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ which is not closed (and hence not all of $mathbb{R})$.



              Example. If we pick a sequence $(r_n)_{n=1}^{infty}$ of positive numbers satisfying $sum_{n=1}^{infty} r_n < infty$, then



              $$ U = bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} (q_n - r_n, q_n + r_n)$$



              is an open set such that $mathbb{Q} subset U$ but $operatorname{Leb}(U) leq sum_{n=1}^{infty} 2r_n < infty$. So there are open dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ with finite length. Notice also that $operatorname{Leb}(U)$ can be made arbitrarily small by choosing suitable $(r_n)$. Another interesting feature of this example is that the boundary $partial U$ has infinite length! In this way, you may think of $U$ as tiny pores of a highly porous material, such as a sponge.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                (+1) Thank you for your comment and answer, I've found them really helpful! I accepted Alex Kruckman's answer though because he gets exactly to the point I was missing, and because we're only allowed to accept one answer. :(
                $endgroup$
                – Jonatan B. Bastos
                Sep 11 '17 at 18:29
















              12












              $begingroup$

              (Extended from a comment) Recall that a subset $mathcal{D}$ of $mathbb{R}$ is called dense if its closure $bar{mathcal{D}}$ is all of $mathbb{R}$. From this definition, you can readily check that the followings are equivalent for dense subsets $mathcal{D} subset mathbb{R}$:



              $$ text{$mathcal{D}$ is closed in $mathbb{R}$} qquad Leftrightarrow qquad text{$mathcal{D} = mathbb{R}$}. $$



              In particular, you can't tell much how porous your set $mathcal{D}$ will be only by knowing the density of $mathcal{D}$. There are lots of dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ which is not closed (and hence not all of $mathbb{R})$.



              Example. If we pick a sequence $(r_n)_{n=1}^{infty}$ of positive numbers satisfying $sum_{n=1}^{infty} r_n < infty$, then



              $$ U = bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} (q_n - r_n, q_n + r_n)$$



              is an open set such that $mathbb{Q} subset U$ but $operatorname{Leb}(U) leq sum_{n=1}^{infty} 2r_n < infty$. So there are open dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ with finite length. Notice also that $operatorname{Leb}(U)$ can be made arbitrarily small by choosing suitable $(r_n)$. Another interesting feature of this example is that the boundary $partial U$ has infinite length! In this way, you may think of $U$ as tiny pores of a highly porous material, such as a sponge.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                (+1) Thank you for your comment and answer, I've found them really helpful! I accepted Alex Kruckman's answer though because he gets exactly to the point I was missing, and because we're only allowed to accept one answer. :(
                $endgroup$
                – Jonatan B. Bastos
                Sep 11 '17 at 18:29














              12












              12








              12





              $begingroup$

              (Extended from a comment) Recall that a subset $mathcal{D}$ of $mathbb{R}$ is called dense if its closure $bar{mathcal{D}}$ is all of $mathbb{R}$. From this definition, you can readily check that the followings are equivalent for dense subsets $mathcal{D} subset mathbb{R}$:



              $$ text{$mathcal{D}$ is closed in $mathbb{R}$} qquad Leftrightarrow qquad text{$mathcal{D} = mathbb{R}$}. $$



              In particular, you can't tell much how porous your set $mathcal{D}$ will be only by knowing the density of $mathcal{D}$. There are lots of dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ which is not closed (and hence not all of $mathbb{R})$.



              Example. If we pick a sequence $(r_n)_{n=1}^{infty}$ of positive numbers satisfying $sum_{n=1}^{infty} r_n < infty$, then



              $$ U = bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} (q_n - r_n, q_n + r_n)$$



              is an open set such that $mathbb{Q} subset U$ but $operatorname{Leb}(U) leq sum_{n=1}^{infty} 2r_n < infty$. So there are open dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ with finite length. Notice also that $operatorname{Leb}(U)$ can be made arbitrarily small by choosing suitable $(r_n)$. Another interesting feature of this example is that the boundary $partial U$ has infinite length! In this way, you may think of $U$ as tiny pores of a highly porous material, such as a sponge.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



              (Extended from a comment) Recall that a subset $mathcal{D}$ of $mathbb{R}$ is called dense if its closure $bar{mathcal{D}}$ is all of $mathbb{R}$. From this definition, you can readily check that the followings are equivalent for dense subsets $mathcal{D} subset mathbb{R}$:



              $$ text{$mathcal{D}$ is closed in $mathbb{R}$} qquad Leftrightarrow qquad text{$mathcal{D} = mathbb{R}$}. $$



              In particular, you can't tell much how porous your set $mathcal{D}$ will be only by knowing the density of $mathcal{D}$. There are lots of dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ which is not closed (and hence not all of $mathbb{R})$.



              Example. If we pick a sequence $(r_n)_{n=1}^{infty}$ of positive numbers satisfying $sum_{n=1}^{infty} r_n < infty$, then



              $$ U = bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} (q_n - r_n, q_n + r_n)$$



              is an open set such that $mathbb{Q} subset U$ but $operatorname{Leb}(U) leq sum_{n=1}^{infty} 2r_n < infty$. So there are open dense subsets of $mathbb{R}$ with finite length. Notice also that $operatorname{Leb}(U)$ can be made arbitrarily small by choosing suitable $(r_n)$. Another interesting feature of this example is that the boundary $partial U$ has infinite length! In this way, you may think of $U$ as tiny pores of a highly porous material, such as a sponge.







              share|cite|improve this answer














              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer








              edited Sep 12 '17 at 1:56









              Alex Ortiz

              10.8k21441




              10.8k21441










              answered Sep 11 '17 at 18:11









              Sangchul LeeSangchul Lee

              95.8k12171280




              95.8k12171280








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                (+1) Thank you for your comment and answer, I've found them really helpful! I accepted Alex Kruckman's answer though because he gets exactly to the point I was missing, and because we're only allowed to accept one answer. :(
                $endgroup$
                – Jonatan B. Bastos
                Sep 11 '17 at 18:29














              • 1




                $begingroup$
                (+1) Thank you for your comment and answer, I've found them really helpful! I accepted Alex Kruckman's answer though because he gets exactly to the point I was missing, and because we're only allowed to accept one answer. :(
                $endgroup$
                – Jonatan B. Bastos
                Sep 11 '17 at 18:29








              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              (+1) Thank you for your comment and answer, I've found them really helpful! I accepted Alex Kruckman's answer though because he gets exactly to the point I was missing, and because we're only allowed to accept one answer. :(
              $endgroup$
              – Jonatan B. Bastos
              Sep 11 '17 at 18:29




              $begingroup$
              (+1) Thank you for your comment and answer, I've found them really helpful! I accepted Alex Kruckman's answer though because he gets exactly to the point I was missing, and because we're only allowed to accept one answer. :(
              $endgroup$
              – Jonatan B. Bastos
              Sep 11 '17 at 18:29











              8












              $begingroup$

              The rationals are all contained in $bigcup I_n$ but not all irrationals
              are.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                8












                $begingroup$

                The rationals are all contained in $bigcup I_n$ but not all irrationals
                are.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  8












                  8








                  8





                  $begingroup$

                  The rationals are all contained in $bigcup I_n$ but not all irrationals
                  are.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  The rationals are all contained in $bigcup I_n$ but not all irrationals
                  are.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Sep 11 '17 at 17:10









                  Lord Shark the UnknownLord Shark the Unknown

                  106k1161133




                  106k1161133






























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